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Compare Aikido steven Seagal techniques and daito-ryu techniques 2

#22
Isoyama said:
There are also many things that can't be explained when they are shown. I have seen and felt the soft aiki that was used by Horikawa Sensei. It doesn't work in a real situation. They were all used on other Japanese men whom were the same size as them. I would love to see you demonstrate that on me. It won't work. Jujutsu techniques without aiki won't work on some people. That is true. But you seem to not understand that atemi can be used as aiki. Go ask Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei if atemi isn't used against much bigger and stronger opponents. As I have said many times on this subject, the hard form of aiki was used on the battlefield when a Samurai lost his sword and was in a hand to hand fighting situation. Takeda Sensei was known for his heavy use of atemi when applying Daito-ryu techniques. Hell, even his own son stated the importance of atemi and using strikes and kicks to break the balance of your opponent and allow for technique to occur.

Daito-ryu fighter, have you ever used your aiki on someone much larger than yourself? I am asking this because using it on another man your size or smaller is not what I am talking about. Isoyama Sensei also learned how to incorporate Aikido on much larger American military men than himself. He learned the importance of timing and atemi in making Aikido work on someone much larger than himself.

There is a great article on the subject of atemi in Aikido that you should read.

http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm
That article on atemi is very well written! I think he hits the nail right on the head!
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#24
WOW!!! I think one problem is that Daito Ryu is trying to convince us that Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is in some way superior. Now, I have said that the individual is the one that makes the technique work. However, I have yet to see any Daito Ryu practitioner on the street survive. I am not going to dispute the link between Aikido and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, however, Aikido has been refined for realistic street self defense, Daito Ryu has not. That is only my perception of it, I could be wrong, but not from what I have seen.
 
#24
I would imagen if you have read anything about Sokaku Takeda Sensei that you would find Daito Ryu to be VERY effective... in fast TOO effective! Aikido gives you more of an option to be nice.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#25
They are both great arts to study...for effective reasons and otherwise... Period!
Either of the two (aikido and Daito Ryu) would not exist today if they were not effective (whatever the concept of effective means to the individual)!

/J
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#26
I do agree with Aikido giving you the option of being nice Bushido, I do not agree with the effectiveness of Daito Ryu, the only reason I say this is that a 3rd Dan Daito Ryu student was in class, from over seas, and wanted to train while here. During Randori, he was rushed and instead of moving and getting out of the way on an attack, he stood, centered and got nailed in the face with a Jo (and the person swinging the Jo actually was going at a slow pace, and he watched it as it came at him). After that he was asked why he did not move, and he stated that he was not "ready" for that type of attack. He could be the one apple in the crowd that had a worm, but I really was concerned about not being ready for all possibilities. I in fact wanted to study Daito Ryu, but was turned off when I saw some of the movements. Again, these are my perceptions and only my experience, I am sure there are others who will definately disagree with me. As far as Takeda Sensei, no doubt I would say he was a very powerful and great martial artist. And I doubt anyone would want to fight him and I know HE would definately not be one to lose a street fight in todays world. I guess my main frustration is that Daito Ryu Fighter is posting these topics trying to make us think or beleive that Daito Ryu is the supreme Aiki art, and I do not beleive that. I think it is up to the individual martial artist. Again, my thoughts only.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#26
Come on tenshinaikidoka! We are on the same wavelength most of the time, but do you realy judge an art by the sole behaiviour of one 3rd dan person? You and I know better than that, don't we?
Where did he/she come from? What line of Daito ryu was it? etc. etc.
You and I have both seen low ranked aikidoka that would easily hold themselves against your average Joe, just as we have seen high ranked aikidoka that wouldn't in reality hold themselves agains our grandparents! Right?

/J
 
#27
Gifted individuals...

Some are just naturally talented. By starting the training, the student may grasp the concepts quickly and apply them easily and perhaps better than the rest in his/her class; but since modern schools require you to invest a specific amount of time into coming to classes before potentially progressing into the next rank, that student is seen as just a beginner when he could be at the same level as the intermediates or the advanced. Other times, you might see the instructors progress their students quicker than the students can handle the training to come just to impress his/her parents for example so that they will continue paying for more lessons (kind of like private schools operate these days ... giving out high grades to many who just do not deseve half of that so that the parents keep getting impressed with their child's progress and keep 'investing' their tens of thousands of dollars annually in such an education without realizing the heart of the problem).
 
#28
I think we've all noted that all martial artists were not created equal, and not all Sandans are either, even within a particular system. I've seen Godans in Aikido that would get crush in a conflict, and I’ve seen Sankyus that would make anyone, who made the severe misjudgment of crossing them, regret it. In fact most Aikidoka could not save themselves from a p*ssed off 16 year old girl. Why is that? Because Aikido is an EXTREAMLY advanced art and if you don’t understand it Aikido is almost worthless. You have to be able to apply Aikido or it won’t work. Seeing as Daito Ryu is very similar to Aikido, I would think it would be very much the same way.

If Sokaku Takeda could make Daito Ryu work, and work so well that everyone including O’sensei wanted to practice with him I must figure that the system works pretty well. So it’s not Daito Ryu that doesn’t work, it’s that Sandan you were practicing with that doesn’t know the time of the day.

As far as I’m concerned Daito Ryu and Aikido from a self-defense point of view both work really well, almost too well. Aikido gives you a little more of an option to be nice, though that’s all it is, an option. However I think Aikido is a deeper art, because of O’Sensei’s spiritual background. In fact is was the head of the Omoto religion that told O’Sensei that he need to create an art that embodied all of his understanding of the spiritual world and all of his understanding of the martial arts.

Also for the record, I think Aikido has a much broader and greater understanding of aiki than Daito Ryu. That is why it is called aikido, “the way of aiki” or “the path of soft energy.” But as I’ve said before most Aikidoka don’t understand Aikido, but that doesn’t look like it is much different for the Daito students either.
 
#29
Yes yes yes Tenshinaikidoka daito-ryu aikijijutsu is superior. Do you know daito-ryu to talk about this martial art. I know aikido and daito so i can compare it. But i think you can't compare the two martial arst because you don't know daito and you have never studied in Japan.
You wrote : " Aikido has been refined for realistic street self defense, Daito Ryu has not" stupid boy, daito is the root of aikido in all the techniques so how daito is not designed for self-defence?
Did you remember that Takeda Sensei was invincible in street fight???It is the same case for Ueshiba sensei Takuma Hisa Sensei etc............In addition without including aiki techniques, the jujutsu techniques are very very very..........very most powerful compare what you learnt in your aikido: a lot of joints locks and secret points for stricking are not tought in aikido, lot of mortal techniques are not tought in aikido, a lot of pressure points are not tought in aikido (non-existent in Aikikai)
read and read...... read again this sentence of "When you practice a technique and your partner smiles, it is modern Aikido. If he screams, it is Daito ryu."

you wrote "I guess my main frustration is that Daito Ryu Fighter is posting these topics trying to make us think or beleive that Daito Ryu is the supreme Aiki art, and I do not beleive that. I think it is up to the individual martial artist"
it is because there are people like you that Ueshiba sensei didn't teach Aiki in his Aikido!!!!!! I would like apply aiki to you, so you will understand the power of these techniques.No more simple, there a great master of daito and aiki in USA, go to him and you will understand your mistake.

you wrote "I say this is that a 3rd Dan Daito Ryu student" ahhhahhhhahhhhahhhhahhhahhh a 3rd DAn daito where he has obtained his 3 dan. I don't understand a 3rf dan in daito, the first great level that i know in daito is the Hidden Mokuruku!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A good martial arts fighter try to understand the complicated things like Aiki (and not just say thai is "individual martial artist"). Sorry, It is not your case, so for me you are a poor fighter.

Bye...................
 
#30
I would have to say you are wrong about Aikido not having Aiki in it, because it does. I will agree that most Aikidoka don't understand it however. That's not to say O'Sensei didn't teach it!

Daito-Ryu Fighter,

I am very interested in expanding my understanding of Daito-Ryu in general both technique and history, are there any good books, videos, or websites you would recommend?

Thank You!

And I’d like to add that I appreciate your perspective, but if you want to lend people to your point of view you are going to have to convince them you know what you are talking about. That is difficult to do when you are saying things about Aikido that are down right wrong. But please continue to post more about your thoughts on Daito-Ryu and its relationship with aiki.
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#31
In saying that Aikijujutsu is superior, I would have to say no, it is not, nor is any one martial art superior to the other. And it is very dependant on the person who studies an art. As far as the Sandan in Daito Ryu, i have no way to verify what school he went to, as I only saw him twice. I also never checked on his credentials, as that was not any of my business. The instructor let him come and train, stating he came from Japan and would be here for a short while. Now, let me set one thing straight, as far as Daito Ryu is concerned, I am not impressed for two reasons. One, is due to what I saw at class. Second is due to Daito Ryu fighter himself, anyone who trains and then has to convince "the world" that his art is superior to another, doesn't say much about what is being taught. I consider myself a person who will continue to learn forever, and not attempt to say I am the most superior being, I am not. Nor is my art of Aikido, but it works FOR ME!!!!! Perhaps I did not express what I meant very well, and if my meaning got crossed somewhere, I am sorry. I do respect the Art of Daito Ryu, it shares many similarities with Aikid, no doubt. I just feel Aikido has been refined so much, it is more practical for street self defense. Again, MY OPINION only. And Daito Ryu Fighter, I cannot accept the fact that your art is in any way superior to mine. No more than Tang Soo DO and Karate. Many similarities, and many differences, but both great in thier own right.
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#31
One other note, I am not a "stupid boy" and I have read up on many aspects of Daito Ryu. It is just not an art for me. When I mean it has been refined, I mean it is continuing to evolve, Daito Ryu is very traditional, and still is to my knowledge. Many Aikido schools today have refined some foot work and also some moves (shortened them) to work quicker and efficiently. That is what I was refering to, not that the techniques would not work. But please Daito Ryu Fighter, I am not insulting you so please do not insult me.
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#31
And Aikilove, you are correct, I have seen Godans that should be 7th Kyu, and yellow belts who could easily take on an opponent with little effort. I was mearly stating that as a first impression of an art that I had at one point wanted to take, I was a little thrown off. But, I am happy with my art and who I am affiliated with, so I am biased I suppose. LOL, oh well, everyone has a weakness, I found mine.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#31
tenshinaikidoka, If you want to understand what Daito ryu is about you shouldn't listen to someone on this board, but feel it for yourself. I suggest going to a seminar where a mainline Daito Ryu instructor conducts class or visit one of the official study groups in US (there are to my knowledge noone or very few licenced instructors of mainline Daito Ryu resident in the US). One good example is Katsuyuki Kondo sensei's annual trips to the US.

You wouldn't want anyone base their oppinion on aikido based on the internet would you? It must be experienced. The same can be said about Daito Ryu.

/J
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#32
And also tenshinaikidoka, I think you will get less surprised in the future if you let go of comparing grades. 'Specially between MA. I've been in a couple of different aikido dojos in Sweden, US, Denmark, Norway, Germany etc I've been at different seminars . Nowhere has it been possible to compare one dan grade with another, or one kyugrade with another. Even within the same organisation! Good or bad, that's how it is today.

/J
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#33
I agree with you Aikilove

However, my problem was my first impression with what I had seen. First impressions, for me and my line of work, say alot about someone. Now, should it have affected my complete outlook on the art, no way. Did it, absolutely. And I will admit when I am wrong, and, in that instance I was wrong. It would be like if I was going on a date with someone and I showed up in stained clothing and smelled of alcohol, that would not be a good first impression, and thus, the person would probably not go out with me, or more likely, want to give me a second chance.

As far as my personal feelings about Daito Ryu as an art, I can honestly say that they were not swayed by the person who calls himself Daito Ryu Fighter. I do respect daito Ryu as an art and as the birth of Aikido. My real problem is that Daito Ryu Fighter seems to want to prove something on here by stating that his art is superior to Aikido, and I do not feel that as correct. He states Aikido has no Aiki techniques. Yet he claims to have studied Aikido for ten or eighteen years, and now does Daito Ryu.

Now, I had a lengthy discussion with my sensei regarding Daito Ryu, and I will again say this, I was wrong about the art and for that I apologize. It can be effective, I guess I was trying to (poorly) communicate that I felt as though Aikido and Daito Ryu, although sharing many similarities and qualities, do have extreme differences. I feel that Aikido has been refined a little more (similar to Bruce Lee evolving his art, but to a different degree) while still maintaining it's traditional roots.

And as far as rank is concerned, I am not impressed by rank and never have been. If I was a white belt forever, it wouldn't have bothered me in the least. The only thing that matters is the skill of the person and the understanding that person has from his/her art. Now, I will say this.....When someone has trained for 10+ years, I would have thought that they would have a better understanding of thier art. And that was the case in class. I guess I expected more from someone who trained in Japan and spent that many years training in the art. Of course, I should not expect too much from anyone, but I did. Again, for that, if it came across as me being hung up on rank, I am sorry. That was not what I meant by writing what I did.

So in closing, I will say this, Daito Ryu is a great art and is certainly deserving of respect, which I will give it. And to the individuals who practise Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, I respect you as well. I was in no way attempting to degrade the art, if that is what is seemed. I think my main problem lied in the fact that an individual would come on to a forum such as this, and claim that there is nothing in Aikido, but there is all this greatness from another art. Maybe I am being territorial, but then again, I guess that is the way I am!!!!
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#33
I found this article regarding Daito Ryu, it is interesting

The third son and successor of Sokaku Takeda, Tokimune Takeda began training in the martial arts under his father in 1925. He completed the Hokkaido Police Officer Training Course in 1946, and in 1947, a police course in stick handling techniques. While a member of the police force, Tokimune received several awards for outstanding service in arresting criminals. He joined the Yamada Fishery Co., Ltd., in December 1951 and worked there until his retirement in 1976. Tokimune established the Daitokan dojo in Abashiri, Hokkaido in 1953, and organized the Daito-ryu techniques, incorporating into them elements of Ono-ha Itto-ryu to create his own Daito-ryu aikibudo. He received the Cultural Social Education Award from Abashiri City on November 3, 1987.

The following text is a compilation of several interviews conducted with Tokimune Takeda between 1985 and 1987 in Abashiri, Hokkaido and Tokyo.

Now that the role of Daito-ryu in the development of aikido is better understood I think it likely that more aikido people will become interested in the history of the art. I would like to begin by asking you some questions about your father, Sokaku Takeda. Can it be said that he created the art of Daito-ryu?

No, the art's origins lie in an art called tegoi. There is a story about this art in the Kojiki.1 When the goddess Amaterasu Omikami went to her fellow god Takeminakata no Mikoto to order him to return her country to her, he and the god Takemikazuchi no Mikoto fought a match. This match was conducted using tegoi, which can be considered to be the origin of present-day sumo. In ancient times, sumo matches were held at shrine festivals. Emperor Seiwa2 created the two Imperial Guard corps of Ukon and Sakon, and made sumo into a martial art. Later, during the Kamakura period, sumo became the most popular martial art. Therefore, it can be said that Emperor Seiwa is the founder of Daito-ryu. When the youngest grandson3 of Emperor Seiwa, Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu, went to Oshu in the northeastern district of Japan, he studied human anatomy through dissection, and this was the origin of Daito-ryu. He stayed at a place known as Daito, and called himself Saburo of Daito. This is the source of the name. Daito-ryu was then passed down through generations of the Takeda family, as we are also descendants of the Emperor Seiwa (see the lineage chart).

The record of this story is kept at the Ise Shrine. Although these documents are not shown to anyone except Shinto priests, I was permitted to see them since the Takeda family is descended from a family of priests. When I went there to check what my father had told me, I found these documents.

Would it be correct, then, to say that Daito-ryu is based on sword movements?

Yes. Sokaku's techniques are based on the sword. In learning Daito-ryu, it is absolutely essential to study the sword. The first short sword technique in the Ono-ha Itto-ryu is the same as the first technique in Daito-ryu, where you pin your opponent, then thrust at and cut him. This technique was only used during the Sengoku Jidai [Age of the Warring States, 1467-1568], but Sokaku taught it as an important technique.

Sokaku always carried a short knife wrapped in a towel. He never showed it to anyone, but I understand that once someone saw him drop it. The technique using this knife was a secret technique of Shingen Takeda.8 When an enemy comes to attack you with his sword, you use this knife in this way [demonstrates]. I now get your vitals. This is ippondori in Daito-ryu.

Could you explain in a little more detail about the concept of aiki?

Aiki is to pull when you are pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the spirit of slowness and speed, of harmonizing your movement with your opponent's ki. Its opposite, kiai, is to push to the limit, while aiki never resists.11

Aiki applies to self-defense when an opponent attacks first, and we use the term to refer to self-defense for people in general. These two must not be confused. Thus, the police do not use the word aiki. They use jujutsu. They fight with kiai, using a sen sen attack. Attacking is kiai. Aiki, on the other hand, is go no sen. policemen are permitted to attack first. This is why the police studied Daito-ryu, though these days the mixture of judo, kendo, aikido, and other arts used by the police is usually referred to as taihojutsu or arrest techniques.

When did Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, meet Sokaku for the first time?

In 1915. I understand they met each other at the Hisada Inn in the town of Engaru in northern Hokkaido. It seems that Mr. Ueshiba came to Hokkaido to cultivate the land when he was in his thirties. He gathered together the second and third children of families--not the eldest sons--and they settled in Hokkaido. He was still young so I imagine it must have been quite difficult for him.

Mr. Ueshiba studied Daito-ryu with my father from 1915 through 1919, about five years. He trained extensively and was enthusiastic. He was Sokaku's favorite student. However, I was the one who was scolded most frequently by Sokaku. After me, it was Morihei Ueshiba whom he scolded most often. Since I was Sokaku's son I wasn't so bothered when he scolded me, but I imagine that Mr. Ueshiba must have been greatly affected since he wasn't a member of the family.

[Looking at accounting ledgers] Mr. Ueshiba really practiced quite a lot. This was the first time, here the second, and this the third. Here are the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh times... Here is the eighth seminar where Mr. Ueshiba participated as Sokaku's assistant. All together, he had seventy days practice as a student. Here is yet another entry, the ninth time.

This is quite different from earlier accounts of the connection between Morihei Ueshiba and Sokaku Takeda, isn't it?

Yes. Mr. Ueshiba also accompanied Sokaku a great deal. Traveling with Sokaku was more significant than just studying with him during the regular practice sessions. And what's more, Mr. Ueshiba also taught as Sokaku's assistant.

So Ueshiba Sensei appears as Sokaku Sensei's assistant starting from this eighth seminar...

That's right. He started accompanying him from that time. Since Sokaku went to various places to instruct the police, judges, and that sort of person, Mr. Ueshiba probably thought that the art was wonderful and that he wouldn't have to continue farming if he mastered it. He was very devoted to Daito-ryu and also quite talkative. When Sokaku was teaching a group of judges and public prosecutors in Hakodate, Mr. Ueshiba happened to be his companion and assisted in teaching them. He was in his thirties then, and he was able to teach judges at this young age. Usually, it was quite difficult to rise to that position in those days. An instructor wasn't employed by the police unless he was descended from a samurai family. It was quite formal. So, it was a great thing to teach judges while so young. Morihei Ueshiba was a splendid person even at such a young age.

Did Ueshiba Sensei become a certified instructor in Daito-ryu at that time?

Actually, it was much later. He went back to Honshu [the largest of Japan's four major islands] before receiving it. It is recorded right here that he received his certification in Ayabe. If I remember correctly, my mother and I went to Ayabe, near Kyoto, when I was six years old. We stayed in Mr. Ueshiba's home, which was known as the Ueshiba Juku, for a long time. I would watch the training even though I was small. At that time there were forty students.

Oh, here it is... This is the record of our stay there. We were there for about five or six months. Here, it says that the students of the Ueshiba Juku received instruction in Daito-ryu jujutsu under Sokaku Takeda Sensei. Many of the students were Omoto believers.

Here, for example, is Masaharu Taniguchi of Seicho no Ie.12 Vice Admiral Seikyo Asano also studied Daito-ryu. These sorts of people also learned the art. Look at this, here is the name "Morihei Ueshiba." It is clearly written that the training ran from April 28 to September 15, 1922, quite a long time. Mr. Ueshiba was also teaching as an assistant then. Sokaku didn't like the Omoto religion very much so it seems he [sarcastically] referred to the house as Morihei Ueshiba's "villa."

So Sokaku taught daily from April 28 to September 15?

That's right. He taught together with Ueshiba. This is Morihei Ueshiba Sensei's kyoju dairi (assistant instructor) certificate. It is in his own handwriting and says:

1. When accepting students for instruction in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu be careful to choose persons of good conduct.

2. When instructing students, have them write their address, name, age, location of their dojo, and the terms of their instruction in an enrollment book and have them stamp it with their seal by way of authentification.

3. When instructing students, an initial payment of three yen should be made to Takeda Dai-Sensei as an enrollment fee.

September 15, 1922

Morihei Ueshiba's Daito-ryu teaching certification, awarded September 1922 (select image to view)

Everyone wrote the same words when receiving their assistant instructor's certificate. It is the same as setting up what we call today a branch dojo. Mr. Ueshiba practiced a great deal, more than anyone else.

Did Sokaku go to Ayabe on Ueshiba Sensei's invitation?

Actually, there were a number of people from the navy training in Mr. Ueshiba's dojo. All of the navy members had experience in sumo wrestling and were quite strong. Since Ueshiba would have had difficulty in handling such individuals he asked Sokaku Takeda Sensei to come. These men were huge, while Mr. Ueshiba was smaller than me. I would imagine that he wasn't able to pin them because he wasn't using precise techniques. After all, it would be difficult using only aiki.

Could you tell us something about the relationship between your father and Morihei Ueshiba after Sokaku's stay in Ayabe in 1922?

Since Ueshiba Sensei was one of Sokaku Takeda's best p upils and studied under him for a long time, I always used to visit him first whenever I went Tokyo, although I haven't been there since his death. I guess Sokaku Takeda loved Morihei Ueshiba best of all his students. Sokaku was terribly worried when Ueshiba was arrested in Osaka.13 He asked Yukiyoshi Sagawa and me to go see how he was managing. At that time, Ueshiba was under house arrest in Tanabe. When Sokaku heard that Ueshiba was all right, he was relieved. He was always concerned about Morihei. Sokaku trusted him a great deal, and would call out his name whenever he had a problem. Ueshiba was a diligent student.

Sorry this is so long, I just thought these excerpts were interesting. This was found on www.daito-ryu.org .
 
#33
Aikilove, it is the advice that i gave to tenshin i wrote"No more simple, there a great master of daito and aiki in USA, go to him and you will understand your mistake" But it is a forum about martial art so it is good to give some information that people don't understand (i think!!)

Tenshin you wrote " It is just not an art for me" that's why i used the expression "stupid boy" Really i don't understand your analysis. How you can discuss about Daito-ryu aikijujutsu (it is not an art, not efficient in street etc.....) only by"readind up on many aspects of Daito Ryu". To know daito you must study it for many years in Japan (or to a great master from Japan). In it's conception, it's techniques, this martial art is designed for fighting in street or elsewhere. Traditionnal or not this martial art is very efficient, very dangerous in any situations. again go to daito master (West america) and you will see you are totally wrong.

You wrote "I would have to say no, it is not, nor is any one martial art superior"" amazing, you didn't understand that daito is aikido and aikido is daito but you have some dimensions, some techniques, which have been lost in aikido. It is the only thing that i say.
but i want to ask you in what school of Aikido you train. Tell me!!!!!!!!!




Bushido, What wrong things i said about Aikido??? for daito site http://www.niagara.com/~zain/
http://www.daito-ryu.org/index.html
http://www.daitoryu-roppokai.org/history.htm#Okamoto
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/index.htm

To finish i want to remember you that i have studied for many years in Japan, You too???????
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#34
Let me set this straight....

I am studying Tenshin Aikido, under Sensei Luis Santos, who is under the direction of Seagal Shihan. Tenshin is under the Aikikai umbrella, however it is different in may respects from traditional Aikido.

As far as reading up on the art of Daito Ryu, that is the only means I have had since there are no schools that teach Daito Ryu in this state (that I know of). Yes I understand that Daito Ryu and Aikido are almost one in the same, however my point was, Aikido has been refined as an art by individuals who teach it. Meaning, the way it was taught originally, is not exactely the way it is taught today. That can be said with ALL styles of martial art. But, there are many techniques that have been taken out of a certain system, or broken down and refined for shorter footwork or whatever the case may be.

Perhaps, because this is a computer I am nto able to express what I mean in a correct tone, and please do not think i am trying to start any fighting of anything like that, not my intent at all. And I do agree with you that there are techniques that have been lost. When O'Sensei created Aikido, he took the techniques he wanted and probably discarded the others. I do not know that for sure, since he taught Daito Ryu.

I guess my main frustration is that I am not claiming that Aikido is superior to Daito Ryu anymore than you should state Daito Ryu is superior to Aikido, which, is exactely what you stated previously "Yes yes yes Tenshinaikidoka daito-ryu aikijijutsu is superior" That is my only gripe. I do respect your opinion Daito Ryu Fighter, I truly do, as I respect everyone's opinion on this forum. Hopefully we can start over and learn from one another, because, i am still and always will be a student of the martial arts.
 
#34
No need for insults because you misunderstood.

Let me make this clear, I do not have much (or any for that matter) real knowledge of any brench of Aikido. However, Daio Ryu Fighter: tenshinaikidoka said "It is just not an art for me" ... what he meant (as I took it) was that daito ryu (the art) is not the art for HIM in particular ... meaning, that it would not (or does not) suit his needs (or whatever he desires or requests from a martial art). I think that tenshinaikidoka is proud to be learning Aikido, and especially proud of the fact that he is studying Tenshin Aikido (probably due to the fact that Steven Seagal has designed the style).

I think the talk about superiority does not apply to martial arts when comparing arts themselves (perhaps when comparing the artists, or fighters, you can say when one is superior to other, but only in a case of multiple attempts to compete between the two ranked fighters).

This discussion is very interesting, and fascinates me very much. Please keep at it, but I think that the two of you are on the same side ... I think it's the language barrier (no offense) that has its effect here.
 
#35
Daitoryu & Aikido

Hello All,

I have been absent from this group for some time. I teach Daitoryu Aikijujutsu here in Lincoln, Nebraska. I began studying Daitoryu in 1994 under Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei in Nishinomiya, Japan. Ohgami-Sensei was one of Takuma Hisa's senior students and helped form the Takuma Kai.

As to the comparison of Aikido and Daitoryu with regard to their street-worthiness . . . I would say that much of the Aikido that I have seen seems to me, not too "martial." No flames intended. We have a large martial arts center here where a number of arts are taught--including Daitoryu AND Aikido. The Aikido taught in our dojo by the Director of Aikido appears significantly different than the Aikido done by, hey, Seagal Shihan.

There are Aikido lines that, I believe, retain much of the Daitoryu'esque nature of . . . old Aikido. Anyway, one of the reasons I so much like Daitoryu includes the following:

1. It uses striking and kicking;

2. It utilizes nerve palpation;

3. Its "control" techniques allow one to control, yet not injure one's opponent;

My primary martial art is Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate. Since training asian martial arts, I have had three very real street situations--one with three opponents. In ALL occasions I utilized Daitoryu to effect a positive end--and NO ONE got badly hurt. In all occasions, I could have used my Karate and ended the altercations within a few seconds. I chose, instead, to spend a bit more time and controlling my opponents without seriously injuring them.

If weapons would have been involved, I would have utilized my karate training--my rule for governing my "use of force."

Daitoryu's "controlling and non-injurious" nature has made it popular amongst police and law enforcement professionals here in Lincoln. I have a half dozen students who utilize Daitoryu on a regular basis in doing their law-enforcement jobs.

So, just a perspective.

Oh, also, I have a Daitoryu student who claims to have been a student of Seagal Shihan. I believe there is someone in this group who trains under Seagal Shihan's senior instructor. Anyway, this guy's name is Ben and he would be quite memorable since he is about 6' 6" and 350 pounds. Do any of you Seagal-line Aikidoka remember anyone who would fit that description? Thanks.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse
 
#36
The different styles of Aikido:

The "Old" Schools
Aiki-Budo
This is the name given to the art O'Sensei was teaching early in his development. It is very close in style to previously existing Jutsu forms such as Daito-ryu Aiki-Jutsu. It is considered to be one of the harder forms of Aikido. Most of the early students of O'Sensei began during this period and much of the early practice overseas was in this style (e.g. Abbe Sensei's teaching in the UK in the 50s).
Yoseikan
This form was developed by Minoru Mochizuki, who was an early student of O'Sensei and also of Jigoro Kano Sensei at the Kodokan. This style includes elements of Aiki-Budo together with aspects of Karate, Judo and other arts.
Yoshinkan
This is the style taught by the late Gozo Shioda. Shioda Sensei studied with O'Sensei from the mid-30s. After the war, he was invited to begin teaching and formed the organization known as the Yoshinkan. Unlike many later organizations, the Yoshinkan has always maintained friendly relations with the Aikikai both during and after O Sensei's life. The Yoshinkan is a harder style of Aikido, generally concerned with practical efficiency and physically robust techniques. It is taught to many branches of the Japanese Police. The international organization associated with the Yoshinkan style of Aikido is known as the Yoshinkai, and has active branches in many parts of the world. In recent years, there have been a number of offshoots of this style, usually developing for political reasons.

The "Modern" Schools
This includes most of the variants taught today. Most of these "styles" are taught by various senior students of O'Sensei, with the divergences coming after the death of the Founder. Most would claim to be teaching the art that O'Sensei taught them - and this is probably true even though some have little in common with others! Most of us have our biases and preferences amongst the various styles but can recognize that all have their strengths and weakness and we all have something to learn from all of them.

The "Traditional" Schools
Aikikai
The Aikikai is the common name for the style headed by Moriteru Ueshiba, O'Sensei's grandson, as taught under the auspices of the International Aikido Federation. Most regard this school as the mainline in Aikido development. In reality, this "style" is more of an umbrella than a specific style, since it seems that many individuals within the organization teach in quite a different manner. The Aikido taught by Ueshiba Sensei is generally large and flowing, with an emphasis on a standard syllabus and little or no emphasis on weapons training. Other teachers within the auspices of the Aikikai (like Saito Sensei) place much more emphasis on weapons practice.
Iwama-ryu
The style taught by Morihiro Saito, based in the Iwama dojo, is generally considered sufficiently stylistically different from mainstream Aikikai that it is named individually, even though it still is part of the Aikikai. Saito Sensei was a long time uchideshi of O'Sensei, beginning in 1946 and staying with him through his death. Many consider that Saito Sensei was the student who spent most time directly studying with O'Sensei. Saito Sensei says he is trying to preserve and teach the art exactly as it was taught to him by the Founder. Technically, Iwama-ryu seems to resemble the Aikido O'Sensei was teaching in the early 50's mainly in the Iwama dojo. The technical repertoire is larger than in most other styles and a great deal of emphasis is placed on weapons training.

The "Ki" Schools
One of the most noticeable splits in the Aikido world occurred in 1974 when Koichi Tohei, then the Chief Instructor at the Aikikai, resigned from that organization and founded the Ki no Kenkyukai to teach Aikido with strong emphasis on the concepts of Ki. Since that time, there has been little interaction between the traditional schools and the Ki schools. All of these arts tend to refer to themselves as Ki Aikido, even though there is little contact between some of the styles.
Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido
The style founded by Koichi Tohei - Aikido with Mind and Body Unified. Tohei Sensei places a great deal of emphasis on understanding the concept of Ki and developing this aspect independently of the Aikido training for application to general health and daily life. This style is one of the softest styles of Aikido and is characterized by soft movements that often involve the practitioner jumping or skipping during the movement. Most schools are not concerned with practical application of the techniques, considering them exercises to further develop Ki. In recent years, Tohei Sensei has been moving further and further away from Aikido and has devoted himself almost exclusively to Ki training. The latest news is that Ki no Kenkyukai has started an initiative to make Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido into an International Competitive sport.

The "Sporting" Styles
One of the other big breaks in Aikido history occurred during O'Sensei's life when Kenji Tomiki proposed "rationalizing" Aikido training using Kata and Competition. Since that time, there has been little commonality between the Tomiki schools and the mainline Aikido schools. In recent years there have been a number of offshoots of Tomiki-ryu that have abandoned the idea of competition.
Tomiki-ryu
Founded by Kenji Tomiki, and early student of O'Sensei and of Judo founder Jigoro Kano. Tomiki Sensei believed that a "rationalization" of Aikido training, along the lines that Kano Sensei followed for Judo would make it more easily taught, particularly at the Japanese Universities. In addition, he believed that introducing an element of competition would serve to sharpen and focus the practice since it was no longer tested in real combat. This latter view was the cause of a split with O'Sensei who firmly believed that there was no place for competition in Aikido training. Tomiki-ryu is characterized by using Kata (prearranged forms) in teaching and by holding competitions, both empty handed and with a rubber knife.

http://www.aikidofaq.com/
 
#37
yudansha said:
The "Old" Schools
Aiki-Budo
This is the name given to the art O'Sensei was teaching early in his development. It is very close in style to previously existing Jutsu forms such as Daito-ryu Aiki-Jutsu. It is considered to be one of the harder forms of Aikido. Most of the early students of O'Sensei began during this period and much of the early practice overseas was in this style (e.g. Abbe Sensei's teaching in the UK in the 50s).
Yoseikan
This form was developed by Minoru Mochizuki, who was an early student of O'Sensei and also of Jigoro Kano Sensei at the Kodokan. This style includes elements of Aiki-Budo together with aspects of Karate, Judo and other arts.
Yoshinkan
This is the style taught by the late Gozo Shioda. Shioda Sensei studied with O'Sensei from the mid-30s. After the war, he was invited to begin teaching and formed the organization known as the Yoshinkan. Unlike many later organizations, the Yoshinkan has always maintained friendly relations with the Aikikai both during and after O Sensei's life. The Yoshinkan is a harder style of Aikido, generally concerned with practical efficiency and physically robust techniques. It is taught to many branches of the Japanese Police. The international organization associated with the Yoshinkan style of Aikido is known as the Yoshinkai, and has active branches in many parts of the world. In recent years, there have been a number of offshoots of this style, usually developing for political reasons.

The "Modern" Schools
This includes most of the variants taught today. Most of these "styles" are taught by various senior students of O'Sensei, with the divergences coming after the death of the Founder. Most would claim to be teaching the art that O'Sensei taught them - and this is probably true even though some have little in common with others! Most of us have our biases and preferences amongst the various styles but can recognize that all have their strengths and weakness and we all have something to learn from all of them.

The "Traditional" Schools
Aikikai
The Aikikai is the common name for the style headed by Moriteru Ueshiba, O'Sensei's grandson, as taught under the auspices of the International Aikido Federation. Most regard this school as the mainline in Aikido development. In reality, this "style" is more of an umbrella than a specific style, since it seems that many individuals within the organization teach in quite a different manner. The Aikido taught by Ueshiba Sensei is generally large and flowing, with an emphasis on a standard syllabus and little or no emphasis on weapons training. Other teachers within the auspices of the Aikikai (like Saito Sensei) place much more emphasis on weapons practice.
Iwama-ryu
The style taught by Morihiro Saito, based in the Iwama dojo, is generally considered sufficiently stylistically different from mainstream Aikikai that it is named individually, even though it still is part of the Aikikai. Saito Sensei was a long time uchideshi of O'Sensei, beginning in 1946 and staying with him through his death. Many consider that Saito Sensei was the student who spent most time directly studying with O'Sensei. Saito Sensei says he is trying to preserve and teach the art exactly as it was taught to him by the Founder. Technically, Iwama-ryu seems to resemble the Aikido O'Sensei was teaching in the early 50's mainly in the Iwama dojo. The technical repertoire is larger than in most other styles and a great deal of emphasis is placed on weapons training.

The "Ki" Schools
One of the most noticeable splits in the Aikido world occurred in 1974 when Koichi Tohei, then the Chief Instructor at the Aikikai, resigned from that organization and founded the Ki no Kenkyukai to teach Aikido with strong emphasis on the concepts of Ki. Since that time, there has been little interaction between the traditional schools and the Ki schools. All of these arts tend to refer to themselves as Ki Aikido, even though there is little contact between some of the styles.
Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido
The style founded by Koichi Tohei - Aikido with Mind and Body Unified. Tohei Sensei places a great deal of emphasis on understanding the concept of Ki and developing this aspect independently of the Aikido training for application to general health and daily life. This style is one of the softest styles of Aikido and is characterized by soft movements that often involve the practitioner jumping or skipping during the movement. Most schools are not concerned with practical application of the techniques, considering them exercises to further develop Ki. In recent years, Tohei Sensei has been moving further and further away from Aikido and has devoted himself almost exclusively to Ki training. The latest news is that Ki no Kenkyukai has started an initiative to make Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido into an International Competitive sport.

The "Sporting" Styles
One of the other big breaks in Aikido history occurred during O'Sensei's life when Kenji Tomiki proposed "rationalizing" Aikido training using Kata and Competition. Since that time, there has been little commonality between the Tomiki schools and the mainline Aikido schools. In recent years there have been a number of offshoots of Tomiki-ryu that have abandoned the idea of competition.
Tomiki-ryu
Founded by Kenji Tomiki, and early student of O'Sensei and of Judo founder Jigoro Kano. Tomiki Sensei believed that a "rationalization" of Aikido training, along the lines that Kano Sensei followed for Judo would make it more easily taught, particularly at the Japanese Universities. In addition, he believed that introducing an element of competition would serve to sharpen and focus the practice since it was no longer tested in real combat. This latter view was the cause of a split with O'Sensei who firmly believed that there was no place for competition in Aikido training. Tomiki-ryu is characterized by using Kata (prearranged forms) in teaching and by holding competitions, both empty handed and with a rubber knife.

http://www.aikidofaq.com/
I've read that before, thx for finding it again. Very true!
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#39
Thank you Gary Gabelhouse............

I say that I stand corrected then regarding Daito Ryu and the street worthiness of the art.

As far as the individual that claims to have been a student of Seagal Shihan, I can say that I honestly do not know, I an on the west coast and really only know the people who I train with and have not met many other Aikidoka in the Tenshin style. Did he happen to mention with whom he trained??? Reynosa Sensei, Santos Sensei or even Matsuoka Sensei????

Anyway, thank you very much for your perspective and again, I stand corrected and I would like to learn more about Daito Ryu, unfortunately I am only able toread about it as there are no instructors in Washington State.