"Obey the law!!"

Mama San

Administrator
ORLANDO, Fla. (May 28) - Experts in Islamic law are being called to testify in the lawsuit of a Muslim woman fighting a state order to take off her veil for her driver's license photo.

Sultanna Freeman, 35, says Florida's insistence on photographing her face violates her religious rights.

``I don't unveil ... because it would be disobeying my Lord,'' Freeman testified Tuesday at the start of her non-jury trial.

Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail argued that having an easily identifiable photo on a driver's license is a matter of public safety.

``It's the primary method of identification in Florida and the nation,'' Vail said. ``I don't think there can be any doubt there is a public safety interest.''

Freeman's attorneys argue that state officials didn't care that she wore a veil in her Florida driver's license photo until after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, an allegation the state denies.

``This is about religious liberty. It's about whether this country is going to have religious diversity,'' said Howard Marks, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

Both sides planned to call experts in Islamic law at the trial, which continues Wednesday. A copy of the Quran has been entered into evidence.

Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, wore her veil for the photo on the Florida driver's license she obtained after moving to the state in 2001.

Nine months later, she received a letter from the state warning that it would revoke her license unless she returned for a photo with her face uncovered.

Freeman claims her religious beliefs require her to keep her head and face covered out of modesty and that her faith prohibits her face from being photographed.

05/28/03 07:34 EDT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There have been many changes since 9/11 and there will be
more to come!! Where the safety of the people of this country
are concerned, she (and all like her) should unveil for their Drivers
License pictures!
If this woman didn't have to "unveil" before 9/11, I would like to
know WHY? They could never identify her with that "veil" across her face! That's what the picture is on there for!
God bless,
Mama san
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Well, I really do feel for her, and I totally believe in freedom of religion, but as I understand it, in most very fundamentalist muslim countries (though not in egypt, where I lived for a time) women are generally not even allowed to drive...When in this country the law must be followed and a recognizable photo is a requirement in order to obtain a license, which is a privlidge, not an automatic right...All I can say is...When in Rome do as the Romans do...Or in this case, when in America....Hope she works it out....
 

Hallarian

New Member
I believe___

I believe in religious freedom BUT there have to be limits. The veil should not be a protected where proof of identity is necessary.:(
 

Amos Stevens

New Member
I agree that she should be made to have her photo taken as everyone else does,if she wants to have an ID for this country..it's like Lotussan said:
When in Rome do as the Romans do...Or in this case, when in America....

I don't have a problem with people from other walks of life speaking their own native language & practicing their own ways in this country,as long as they also speak our native tongue & recognize our ways of life as well.That is why they came to this country
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
One has to obey the laws of the land you are living in, whether you agree with them or not.

Some years ago, Barbara Walters travelled - I believe it was to Saudi Arabia - to interview a member of the Royal family. The law there was that a woman could not go with her head uncovered. So even though she was an American, and not Muslim, she still was obliged to obey the law of the land, and wore a kerchief the whole time she was there. (In fact, if I recall correctly, she was given the kerchief by the air hostess of the plane she was on, before they even landed, and told she must wear it all the time.)

The woman in Mama san's news story is trying to have her cake and eat it too, I think. She wants to use her religion to circumvent the law, and yet is not prepared to make the sacrifice of not being legally entitled to drive if she does adhere to her religion.

Are there any Muslims in this group? Does the Quran really say this, or is it in fact a custom of the particular group she's chosen to join? Why is it some women wear the full burka, while others only wear head scarves? Does the latter make them less Muslim? I've heard conflicting reports on this. I've got an English translation of the Quran - I guess I should sit down and read it one day, and see what it says.
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
TD, that sounds cool...I should have bought one (a translation of the Koran / Quran) when I lived in Cairo...I am going to look it up on the net sometime...BTW, I just adore your avatar, it is sooo gorgeous! Momma mia! What a man! ;)
 

kokoro

Protector
Perhaps after the trial, they should find out who the twit was that gave her the photo and license in the first place!!
You've got to have one to get revoked right??

What sort of person would process a license with a photo of a pair of eyes??:rolleyes:
 

Mama San

Administrator
Originally posted by kokoro

What sort of person would process a license with a photo of a pair of eyes??:rolleyes: [/B]


Kokoro,
Only an idiot!!

There was a time, in this country, that a few women wore "veils".
At the time it was the fashion. Women were respected. Today the
female population doesn't have that respect. I'm afraid that women have brought a lot of it on themselves. Equal rights (for women) is one thing but it has been carried to the point of idiocy.
It seems today that females are just as dangerous and crazy as their male counterparts, if not more so in some cases.
This woman may be of no threat to anyone but what if she is?
We have enough weirdos in this country, (remember 9/11) that
must be identified. With a female's face covered, how do we identify her or even know if "she" is a female? Extremely difficult
to tell with that thing over "her" face.
Just a personal point of view!
God bless,
Mama san
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by Mama san
Kokoro,
Only an idiot!!

There was a time, in this country, that a few women wore "veils".
At the time it was the fashion. Women were respected. Today the
female population doesn't have that respect. I'm afraid that women have brought a lot of it on themselves. Equal rights (for women) is one thing but it has been carried to the point of idiocy.
It seems today that females are just as dangerous and crazy as their male counterparts, if not more so in some cases.

God bless,
Mama san

If I may gently say, women have always been just as dangerous and crazy as their male counterparts, only they had different ways of expressing it, usually, sadly, without much effect because their ability to do so was curtailed by the social structure in which they lived (this includes Western civilization until about 1970).

The fact is, women have never been respected as they should have been; "respect", before equal rights, meant that what went on behind closed doors, stayed behind closed doors. A man could beat his wife half to death, but that was okay, because in public, he treated her well. 'Respect' of women was an illusion that has been shattered by equal rights. A woman today has the same right to respect as any man. She is a human being, after all; and should she not expect to be treated with the same dignity and respect as any individual would treat any one else?

Stepping down off my soapbox now.
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Right TD, but I have to admit that I'm still really an old fashioned kinda girl, but at least it's a choice...Just because I respect the differences between the sexes doesn't mean I would ever tolerate being beaten...I still expect all the respect that is my right, just as any man out there deserves his too...:)
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by Lotussan
Right TD, but I have to admit that I'm still really an old fashioned kinda girl, but at least it's a choice...Just because I respect the differences between the sexes doesn't mean I would ever tolerate being beaten...I still expect all the respect that is my right, just as any man out there deserves his too...:)

Exactly my point.

I suppose I take a less old-fashioned view because I am a single woman, and therefore necessarily independent. And, because of some personal history into which I will not go (too boring), I actually do not expect to be well treated by men, hence why I am always surprised when I am (and I why I am often so cynical about men's motives).

I'm amazed and saddened at how young people today are not being taught to treat *everyone* with respect. It's usually only the older men who might, from time to time, open a door and let a woman pass through first, and when that happens to me, I always thank them, because it is the polite thing to do. I don't expect it, mind you; but I am always pleasantly surprised by it. But even the older men now do not, for example, offer a heavily pregnant woman their seat on the train, or open doors for women, or any of a myriad of other things that men used to do "out of respect". It's not a lack of respect for women: it's just plain rudeness. And the youngsters are being taught the same kind of rudeness and lack of respect - for everyone, not just women.

I had an experience one day where I was going into the grocery store and did not see that there was someone - a man - right behind me, so I just let the door close, not knowing he was there. When we got to the turnstile, first he trapped me in it, then he pushed me out of it, and started railing at me for letting the door close in his face. "I'm sorry, sir," said I, "I didn't know you were there." "B***h!" he replied, and wandered off. He was neither aged nor infirm, and consequently, I'm afraid I had absolutely no sympathy for him whatsoever, because he *was* capable of opening the door for himself. If I'd seen him, would I have kept the door open for him? Certainly. Did I deserve to get trapped and then pushed for what I did? I don't think so. I wasn't being disrespectful - just preoccupied!

If someone treats me with respect it's because I've earned it (or, I hope I have). Just because I'm a woman doesn't automatically award me instant respect points, nor do I want that kind of respect, because to me, it's meaningless. If someone is to respect me, I have to behave with dignity and grace, be compassionate, patient, polite and kind. And out of that comes the respect I give to others.

Whew. Stopping now, before I scare anyone.
 

Mama San

Administrator
Want to know what "equal rights" did for me?
I was working as a janitor at the General Mototrs
plant in Columbus, some thirty years ago. Granted
that was a long time ago but I haven't forgotten!
The trash cans, at that time, weighted about 30
pounds! There were no trash can liners then. I
had to lift it into a much larger container. To make
it a little more interesting, the men put steel blocks
in the bottom of the cans, making it impossible for
me to lift it. I guess General Motors wanted to make
an example of the women that worked there. They
didn't like being told that they had to follows rules
that they hadn't enacted on their own.
Anyway, it wasn't the precious ERA that helped me,
it was my union! The United Auto Workers (UAW)
demanded and got the trash can liners and also
any man caught putting steel into the bottom of the cans
would be reprimanded and could possibly face dismissal!
We were also told, if we couldn't lift the liners out of the
trash cans, to leave them set and call for the union rep.

Please don't get me wrong! I am all for equal pay for equal
work but in my case the ERA was more of a hinderance than
it was a help.
God bless,
Mama san
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by Lotussan
TD, that sounds cool...I should have bought one (a translation of the Koran / Quran) when I lived in Cairo...I am going to look it up on the net sometime...BTW, I just adore your avatar, it is sooo gorgeous! Momma mia! What a man! ;)

Oh, I didn't see this post from you, Lotussan.

Yes, I found the one I liked the best that fit the space. I think I found that picture in the gallery here, but I can't remember now exactly where it is. Gorgeous, isn't it?

I'm still working on figuring out how to get a piccie in my sig.
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by Mama san
Please don't get me wrong! I am all for equal pay for equal
work but in my case the ERA was more of a hinderance than
it was a help.
God bless,
Mama san

It was like that in the beginning, it's true, and I'm sorry that it had to happen to you. I think you would find that similar incidents probably happened to just about every woman in the early days who took a job traditionally done by men. It's important to note that your union stood behind you, and that really counts for something.

The way I see it, the men who weighted the cans were a bunch of jerks who felt threatened because here was a woman capable of doing a job they'd always done, and they couldn't stand it. They probably saw it as an attack on their manhood, or something. It wasn't the ERA's fault that you had these jerks giving you a hard time. Jerks are just jerks, they only need an excuse (and sometimes no excuse) for their bad behaviour.

I have no patience with these kinds of guys. In fact, they bloody well better stay out of *my* way, or else they'll be sorry!

I don't know if the young women of today for whom no job has barriers because of their gender realize what a lot of s**t women had to go through in order to get to where things stand today. I should - in fact, I will - thank you and all the other women who had to put up with a lot of hardship and nonsense in order to pave the way for women doing any job they want, without the artificial barrier of gender.
 

Mama San

Administrator
TD,
Thank you! It was a hard road
and in some places it still is!
But someday, someday!!
God bless,
Mama san
 

kokoro

Protector
Mama-san wrote:
There was a time, in this country, that a few women wore "veils".
At the time it was the fashion. Women were respected. Today the
female population doesn't have that respect. I'm afraid that women have brought a lot of it on themselves. Equal rights (for women) is one thing but it has been carried to the point of idiocy.
It seems today that females are just as dangerous and crazy as their male counterparts, if not more so in some cases.
This woman may be of no threat to anyone but what if she is?
We have enough weirdos in this country, (remember 9/11) that
must be identified. With a female's face covered, how do we identify her or even know if "she" is a female? Extremely difficult
to tell with that thing over "her" face.
Just a personal point of view!
God bless,
Mama san
I know what you are saying here, and coming from the first country in the world to give women the right to vote politically, I understand your view.
I think it is common sense that for an Identification document you would "bare all" (facially) as is required under most statute all over the world. But, I still think the person that processed it in the first place was a yutz! which is why they'll have problems in the case, because it was issued, although, I think common sense will prevail.

Now from a blokes perspective here..(uh oh).... some women have spent a long time to get equal rights as men, in the workplace, in the home, in life generally and I think those women did extremely well to get it. But there are fundemental differences as we all know with men and women, physically, mentally, spiritually too I guess, that seems to have been left out of the equation. Neither sex will ever be equal physically, mentally or spiritually (though their will be individual exceptions) to the other, but that is why we are different, we compliment each other. Both sexes deserve equal respect not as a right, but as the decent thing to do as a human being, I think the moment one or the other demands respect because of their sex or for any reason, then that is the beginning of the meaningless-ness of the word. You only get respect when you earn it as an individual, and then, it may spread to the sex, race, origin, ethincity, country, planet etc.
Respect is not a right, but to have your rights respected like any other human IS!

TDWoj wrote:
I actually do not expect to be well treated by men, hence why I am always surprised when I am (and I why I am often so cynical about men's motives).

Your expectation saddens me a little, I think you should expect to be well treated, and if not, the guy is not worth knowing, but there are good blokes out there, and bad, just like women. I hope you bump into a good bloke!!

The first time I held the door open for a female school teacher, I was marched to the principles office for a commendation( I think I was 11). The teacher (in her 50's) was overwhelmed. I'm still not sure if it was because 'I' held it open, or because I was male:eek: and I thougth it was just the normal thing to do!!

Rob
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Poor kokoro....Keep being a gentleman, I'm just one woman, but I do really appreciate a man with some manners, I don't think it's too much to ask...:)
 
Top