Will Aikido be replaced by Daito-ryu in the next two Decade

aikijones

New Member
I looked at the site that Daito-Ryu-fighter summitted to the forum for some information concerning the Martial Arts of Daito-Ryu. www.niagara.com/%7Ezain/html/daitoryu.htm
At first glance I noticed how there was Aikido information on the bottom of a Daito-ryu site. Interesting I thought. I double clicked on the link and kept reading, then I came across a chart comparing Aikido to Daito-ryu. Of course I was thinking in the third person point of veiw concerning the site but as I read on, it looked as though the link was comparing Daito-ryu to the way alot of American's study Aikido. Well this got me thinking. And proposses my question. Is Daito-ryu going to take the place of Osensei's Art of Aikido in America in the next couple of decades?
What I'm thinking, is you can mention the word Aikido and even if the person who doesn't study martial arts they would have heard of Aikido way before hearing of Daito-ryu. So as a marketing strategy Daito-ryu could use the declining of Aikido as a stepping stone for advancement. Because they are saying they do what Aikido hasn't successful demostarted in America. So here is the chart and what do you think?​
A Comparison between Traditional Aiki(Daito ryu)
and Modern Aiki(Aikido)
Daito-ryu
Techniques are done with small circular motions, to fast conclusions.
Aikido
Techniques use large, fluid circles, and wider motions, with much more graceful steps.
Daito-ryu
In practice, attacks are performed with sharp precision.
Aikido
Attacks tend to be softer, fluid, and stylized.
Daito-ryu
Use of mushin [no mind]as the samurai faced the sword, turning defense into offense.
Aikido
Techniques are designed to neutralize an attack and control it.
Daito-ryu
Techniques are designed to cripple or kill.
Aikido
Control is used according to the circumstances. The defender blends with the attack to neutralize it without injuring the attacker.
Daito-ryu
Good ukemi [break-falling]is required for the harder and completed technique.
Aikido
Good ukemi is necessary, but not critical. Many techniques can be used safely as uke blends with the throw.
Daito-ryu
Pressure point knowledge is necessary. Techniques make great use of pain. Strikes are frequent.
Aikido
Pain is applied with restraint, in small doses. Strikes taught to some degree, but is discouraged.
Daito-ryu
Discipline, harmony, faithfulness and austerity are emphasized, with respect for tradition and aiki precepts.
Aikido
Emphasis on peace, love, harmony, friendship, and aiki precepts, as taught by Morihei Ueshiba.​
 

Isoyama

New Member
I pretty much agree with that chart except for certain types of aikido. I have already emphasized the aikido that was taught in Iwama as being very similar to the Daito-ryu side of the chart. Saito Sensei emphasized that atemi was critical to make aikido work as does Isoyama Sensei. Yes, there are times when you can use kokyu and not have to use atemi but when someone is right in front of you kicking, striking or swining at you, I believe deflections and atemi are critical.

As far as Daito-ryu taking over for Aikido in America, I highly doubt it. Daito-ryu seems to be taught much more secretively and more selectively. I would very much love to take a class from Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei. His stuff is amazing and very powerful. He learned directly from Takeda Sensei's son.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
First of, I agree with Isoyama in that I highly doubt Daito Ryu will "take over" aikido. Daito Ryu might get bigger by time but I don't see Aikido getting smaller in any near future. So many great teacher, and direct student of the founder himself has by now themselves produced a vast amount of great teachers. I actually tend to see a quality increase over all. In the past and still many, many aikido schools have poped up with more or less technicaly un-qualified teachers. This lead to a great increase of number of students but, over all, not very good aikidoka. In the future I believe the number of good quality aikido teachers out there now, make aikido over all better and better.

Secondly, Isoyama, from my own experience I tend to view answers like
but when someone is right in front of you kicking, striking or swining at you, I believe deflections and atemi are critical.
as a display of lack of real experience of having actually been attacked as an advanced (more than 5 years!) aikido student. You are not alone at all in this kind of believe and in general I agree with you. But since I have myself been there on the other side of an attack like you mentioned (kicking, stiking etc) I know for a fact that atemi are not critical for success. When I teach I do indeed strongly make a point of how important atemi are, but in aikido we strive to be able to go beyond that.
If you have great control of distance, timing and balance then alot of cases you can get away with that, without using atemi.
Please remember that, just because someone (whoever it is) has told you something about how things work in reality, you need to remember that his or hers statement are based on either:
1. Someone else told him/her so.
2. He/she has tried it themself in real life without success, and therefore draws general conclusion about somethings value in real life.
3. He/she has tried it themself in real life with succes, and therefore draws general conclusion about somethings value in real life.

I would boldly state that in case #1, if the statement is negative in regards about somethings (that previously has been regarded positivily) applicability in real life, don't take it as a truth to be taught by yourself to the next generation.
Same goes with case #2. Just because this guy couldn't make something work doesn't mean it doesn't work! On the other hand, as in case #3 this does infact show that something works! So if a statement is based on #3 then one can be quite confident that with enough training I can make it work.

/J
 

Amos Stevens

New Member
Well who can say what will happen tomorrow,but I would like to think & hope that O Senseis Aikido will live on forever! As long as there are true Sensei studying & teachings its ways-it shall last!
 

Isoyama

New Member
Aikilove,

I completely disagree with you and I have a lot of experience in aikido. The parrying and striking aspect of aikido is not used enough against a kicking or striking attack. And you don't always get to have proper distancing from an attacker. What do you do if they are up close and personal with you and throw a quick punch? There isn't always the ability to have good distancing. You have to be able to deal with situations that are different from what is usually practiced in the dojo. I believe, very strongly, in the importance of deflections, irimi and atemi in aikido because that is where the martiality of the art is at. It is also an area that in my opinion has been lost to a degree in today's aikido. Talk to George Ledyard Sensei about it. He wrote a great article on atemi in aikido.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
Isoyama, I honestly don't know if you dissagree with me at all? I didn't say you didn't have experience in aikido. I said that certain statements usually equate lack of "real life" experience.
If you read my bold text in my previous reply:
When I teach I do indeed strongly make a point of how important atemi are, but in aikido we strive to be able to go beyond that.
You see that I did say that atemi is very important when training and teaching aikido. But atemi is not always vital for success in real life. I know, 'cus I've been there and did succeed without atemi. Was I lucky? Perhaps, but that doesn't matter. It's still proof that just because a real attack (kick, punch up close) occur, one doesn't per default need to use atemi. Sometime you will use, and sometimes it's simply not necessary. In my case I simply steped of the line and that time it was enough in both attacks (kick and punch). If it wouldn't have been enough then I might have considered the use of atemi.
Have you been attacked outside the dojo by a stranger/strangers that came up close and then trying to punch and/or kick you? I have.

/J

Ps. And I have talked (e-mailed) with with George L about the subject and we seem to be on the same wavelength. Ds.
 

Isoyama

New Member
Aikilove,

You stated that you had talked to George Ledyard Sensei. So did Ledyard Sensei say that you should go beyone atemi to make aikido work?

Also, you stated, "Have you been attacked outside the dojo by a stranger/strangers that came up close and then trying to punch and/or kick you? I have."

Yep, sure have. And it worked just fine thank you. By the way, I never said that you have to use atemi ALL THE TIME to make aikido work. I said that knowing how to use atemi is critical because there are times when you must use atemi to make aikido work. Not all the time, but sometimes. If some guy is flying at you to tackle you or going to throw a running punch, then I think you can use tenkan and just get out of the way. But if you have some guy walk up to you and get in your face, you had better know how to use atemi. The problem I see is that many people are not taught how to deal with that second situation. You can't always have proper distancing. You have to be able to use atemi to get out of situations where an attacker is not flying at you but more stationary trying to kick or punch you.

That is what I am saying.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
Isoyama,
In your last post you wrote
.../knowing how to use atemi is critical because there are times when you must use atemi to make aikido work.
This I agree with. But... in your previous post you wrote
.../when someone is right in front of you kicking, striking or swining at you, I believe deflections and atemi are critical.
, which I interpret as: in these situations you need to use atemi and deflection, period, which I don't agree with. Not necisarily!
Maybe I'm nitpicking ;) And btw I said that, in aikido we strive beyond atemi. With this I ment that aikido is more than just "making it work", I thought that was obvious. Nothing about going beyond atemi for making it work!

And btw. George Ledyard and I recently discussed the need to teach and train atemi, but both agreed that atemi is more than just a punch and aikido is more than just atemi. ;)

Maybe I'm nitpicking...

/J
 

Gary Gabelhouse

New Member
Hello,

I am new in these forums. I have been reading some of the Aikido threads as well as the Daitoryu threads. I have been training Daitoryu Aikijujitsu for ten years. My Sensei is Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei from Nishinomiya. He was a senior student of Takuma Hisa.

Takuma Hisa first started training Daitoryu Aikijujitsu under Morhei Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) in 1933 at the Asahi Newspaper Company in Osaka. Ueshiba O'Sensei studied Daitoryu under Sokaku Takeda and was one of Takeda's favorite students. Unfortunately, there was a falling out between them in 1936. Takeda came looking for what he described as his "half trained student" (Ueshiba). Ueshiba, having taught at the newspaper company for three years, abruptly left, without even a goodbye to his students.

In about 1940 Ueshiba went to the Naval College in Tokyo and developed the art now referred to as Aikido.

I did enjoy the comparisons of Daitoryu with Aikido. However, I feel the difference to be Aikido's exclusion of the knock-down punch or kick and a general exclusion of the control techniques so often found in Daitoryu.

As to punches and kicks in Aikido . . . Many of Ueshiba's senior students learned Daitoryu from him. When he changed and started doing Aikido, many of his older students maintained punches, kicks and control techniques and "mixed it in" with their Aikido. The Aikido my Karate teacher learned in the late 1950's maintained a strong flavor of Daitoryu--including punches, kicks and control techniques.

Just my perspective.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse
 

Littledragon

Above The Law
Gary Gabelhouse said:
Hello,

I am new in these forums. I have been reading some of the Aikido threads as well as the Daitoryu threads. I have been training Daitoryu Aikijujitsu for ten years. My Sensei is Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei from Nishinomiya. He was a senior student of Takuma Hisa.

Takuma Hisa first started training Daitoryu Aikijujitsu under Morhei Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) in 1933 at the Asahi Newspaper Company in Osaka. Ueshiba O'Sensei studied Daitoryu under Sokaku Takeda and was one of Takeda's favorite students. Unfortunately, there was a falling out between them in 1936. Takeda came looking for what he described as his "half trained student" (Ueshiba). Ueshiba, having taught at the newspaper company for three years, abruptly left, without even a goodbye to his students.

In about 1940 Ueshiba went to the Naval College in Tokyo and developed the art now referred to as Aikido.

I did enjoy the comparisons of Daitoryu with Aikido. However, I feel the difference to be Aikido's exclusion of the knock-down punch or kick and a general exclusion of the control techniques so often found in Daitoryu.

As to punches and kicks in Aikido . . . Many of Ueshiba's senior students learned Daitoryu from him. When he changed and started doing Aikido, many of his older students maintained punches, kicks and control techniques and "mixed it in" with their Aikido. The Aikido my Karate teacher learned in the late 1950's maintained a strong flavor of Daitoryu--including punches, kicks and control techniques.

Just my perspective.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse


Welcome to the site!!
 

aikido

New Member
Aikido and Daito Ryu

Hi! I'm a daito ryu practitioner (1st dan) and I think that it's impossible that daito ryu will take over aikido, because both of the styles complements each other. Remember...without daito ryu aiki jujutsu, what'll Morehei Ueshiba try to create? The name and the style'll be a very different form of "aikido"! :D
 

kokoro

Protector
"Is Daito-ryu going to take the place of Osensei's Art of Aikido in America in the next couple of decades?"


In America, anything's possible!! :eek:

But I would have to say no. Daito-Ryu might grow as Westerners return back to their homelands from Japan and begin schools, but Aikido will always be around I feel. People will always float from one to the other in martial arts. Not all people do, but I would say a great many.
There is always something new to learn or a new way of doing the same thing. I hope both arts flourish. ;)
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
The previous soke (head master) of Daito ryu aikijujutsu, Tokimune Takeda, son of Sokaku Takeda (one of Ueshibas teachers), said that in Daito ryu a technique is always finished with the decapitation (or ending the life) of the enemy. That is the different approach between Daito ruy and e.g. aikido. Although the technique may seem similar the mental attitude and approach are the opposite. In Aikido we give life "Katsujinken" (simplified but you get the idea), the training is not about defeating or winning. In Daito ryu, you defeat your enemy and kill him, period. This doesn't mean of curse that training Daito ryu doesn't give valueble life lessons, but the approach is about defeating and killing your opponent.
Herein lies the reason, I think, to why mainline Daito ryu aikijujutsu, as it is trained today, on a global scale will not replace aikido.

/J
 

Isoyama

New Member
Aikilove,

I tend to disagree with your assertion that Daito-ryu techniques end with a decapitation or killing of the opponent. Not all Daito-ryu techniques do so. There are many techniques in Daito-ryu that are similar to kokyunage. They are called aikinage and they are a part of the aiki-no-jutsu that O-sensei studied under Takeda Sensei. They involve more throws and less of the controlling and locking of the opponent. But there are many techniques in Daito-ryu that do not include killing or decapitation of your opponent.
 
I' m agree with Isoyama,

In daito-ryu there are many techniques that can make great damages on human body but daito-ryu is not just "decapitation and kill". In this martial art there are also spiritual, psychological dimensions (from Shinto and others influence). Like Aikido (in a real fight or in dojo) daito-ryu practionner respect his opponent. Like said Isoyama there are the aiki no jutsu techniques (Aiki based techniques) and this dimension of daito-ryu aikijujutsu (physical and energy power) is for me very great and not known in any other martial art.

But in my opinion, daito will not replace Aikido because don't forget that this martial art is very secret and there are little daito Master (not just a 1 dan) outside the Japan.
 

Gary Gabelhouse

New Member
Daitoryu & Killing Finishes

Hello All,

I have studied Daitoryu Aikijujitsu since 1994, under Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei in Nishinomiya. Ohgami-Sensei was a senior student of Takuma Hisa.

I must throw in with those that say not ALL Daitoryu techniques end in a deadly technique. Sure, there are many Daitoryu techniques (or better put) combinations of techniques that end in a deadly technique. However, in the techniques I have personally learned, many end in only a controlling technique, or have, as others have alluded, the aiki power elements that are dominating, yet not necessarily . . . deadly.

In my view (I have never studied Aikikdo--only Daitoryu--however, I have watched the Aikido in our dojo), Daitoryu and Aikido differ in the following:

1. Daitoryu focuses on strikes and kicks--Aikido has lost most if not all of such;

2. The throwing techniques of Daitoryu tend to have "smaller circles" than Aikido. The biomechanical advantage seems more accute and quick compared to those of Aikido;

3. Daitoryu often ends, after the throwing technique, with either a strike or a control technique--Aikido tending to focus only on the throw.

Just my opinion. Does anybody know how many true Daitoryu Dojo there are in the USA?

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse
 

Isoyama

New Member
Gary Gabelhouse said:
Hello All,


In my view (I have never studied Aikikdo--only Daitoryu--however, I have watched the Aikido in our dojo), Daitoryu and Aikido differ in the following:

1. Daitoryu focuses on strikes and kicks--Aikido has lost most if not all of such;

I tend to agree with you Gary except that there are a few aikido styles that retain much of the influence of the kicks and strikes from the Daito-ryu schools. Two that stand out to me are Yoshinkan and Iwama-ryu. I would also throw in the Tenshin aikido of Seagal Sensei.

2. The throwing techniques of Daitoryu tend to have "smaller circles" than Aikido. The biomechanical advantage seems more accute and quick compared to those of Aikido;

Tend to agree here too except for the schools named above. Don't know if you have ever seen Isoyama Sensei in action but his movement is very sharp and he uses very small circular movements. I would also throw in that Daito-ryu tends to emphasize throwing uke straight down or close to the body so that controlling techniques can be used while aikido emphasizes more outward projections.

3. Daitoryu often ends, after the throwing technique, with either a strike or a control technique--Aikido tending to focus only on the throw.

I tend to agree with this in most if not all aikido schools. Aikido tends to emphasize throwing the opponent outward. I think Ueshiba developed this idea from Randori and taking on multiple attackers. It isn't a good idea to throw opponents at your feet if there are many attackers. I would want them projected outward and away from me because you are not going to be able to control many attackers.

Just my opinion. Does anybody know how many true Daitoryu Dojo there are in the USA?

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

By the way Gary, what is your opinion on Seagal Sensei's aikido as compared to the Daito-ryu you practice?
 
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