Didnt Steven pratice something else beside Aikido??
- Thread starter Mason
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yudansha
TheGreatOne
absolutely correct
Your impression would then be correct Mason. Steven Seagal took up karate first. Then as he got into aikido, techniques of kendo and judo (along with jujitsu) were introduced, having Seagal concentrate on all. Hir rank in kendo is just as great as his in aikido. He really is incredible.
Your impression would then be correct Mason. Steven Seagal took up karate first. Then as he got into aikido, techniques of kendo and judo (along with jujitsu) were introduced, having Seagal concentrate on all. Hir rank in kendo is just as great as his in aikido. He really is incredible.
He got a shodan I believe in karate but that is is it. Kenjutsu (Yaguy Shinkage ryu) and aikido is his main martial arts. the jujutsu, kung fu and Tai Chi are all very briefly trained by him as I understand it. Aikido (7th dan) and kenjutsu (that school don't rank, you are awarded titles and various degree of intruction licenses) and to a lesser degree karate really is what he has trained. Not so little if you ask me.
/J
/J
yudansha
TheGreatOne
kenjutsu vs. kendo
You're right, kenjutsu does not award ranks but kendo does
and i would say that Seagal has earned his 7th or 8th dan in kendo (as well as aikido)
Steven Seagal did earn his shodan in karate before trying other martial arts
karate seems the most popular, as most start with karate (although it is not that easy to master, especially if you want to achieve higher ranks)
Michael J. White also began with karate (which he mastered quite well) and then began with his TKD and many others (he holds over 6 black belts in different martial arts and their styles)
Traditional training in jujutsu or kenjutsu is very difficult to find if you're not planning to study them in Japan. Kendo and judo on the other hand are more popular and give ranks as any other 'modern' martial arts.
You're right, kenjutsu does not award ranks but kendo does
and i would say that Seagal has earned his 7th or 8th dan in kendo (as well as aikido)
Steven Seagal did earn his shodan in karate before trying other martial arts
karate seems the most popular, as most start with karate (although it is not that easy to master, especially if you want to achieve higher ranks)
Michael J. White also began with karate (which he mastered quite well) and then began with his TKD and many others (he holds over 6 black belts in different martial arts and their styles)
Traditional training in jujutsu or kenjutsu is very difficult to find if you're not planning to study them in Japan. Kendo and judo on the other hand are more popular and give ranks as any other 'modern' martial arts.
Yudansha, He (Steven) has done little if any kendo, so saying that he has earned a 8 dan in kendo really deminish the accomplishments of the men and women that has given their life to train and spread kendo. Yagyu shinkage ryu kenjutsu is not kendo. Steven Seagal has given a great deal of his life to train and spread aikido though, therefore he holds the grade of 7 dan aikido. He has also trained alot in kenjutsu (not kendo mind you) and probably hold some license in the style mentioned above. That and his shodan in karate is what he holds (grades and licence wise), which is not a small feat but there is no need to say that he has done more then he really has, because I really don't think that is what he wants.
/J
/J
It's Ok Lotussan.
Kendo is the modern version of kenjutsu (japanese traditional sword techniques), where the focus today is toward sparring (fencing) and competition in fencing. Not very unlike the evolvement of judo from jujutsu. In kendo you put on some protective armor, like helmet, breastshield and gloves, and you have a sword replica made of split bambu. The split bambu are rigid enough to feel sword like, but flexes when inpact to protect each other. Then it's pretty much as in western fencing, the goal is to have good workout and in matches to score points, but you hold your sword with both hands in kendo and all the rituals and names are japanese.
Kenjutsu is the collective name of a couple of extant traditional japanese fencing. The focus is always on applicability, i.e. the techniques and training are geared to live after a bout with someone else when one or both have razor sharp sword. In training one normally don't wear the same armor as in kendo, save for the gloves in some cases and the sword replica are usually bokken (wooden sword). The training is usually geared to train the style specific kata (set of fixed patterns and forms) that contain that styles essence. These katas are usually the same as thay have been since the style started. The instuctor are helping the student to understand the styles "secrets" oraly and with examples.
The mindset of someone trying to score points (kendo) and someone who knows he will die if touched with a sword (kenjutsu) are completely different.
/J
Kendo is the modern version of kenjutsu (japanese traditional sword techniques), where the focus today is toward sparring (fencing) and competition in fencing. Not very unlike the evolvement of judo from jujutsu. In kendo you put on some protective armor, like helmet, breastshield and gloves, and you have a sword replica made of split bambu. The split bambu are rigid enough to feel sword like, but flexes when inpact to protect each other. Then it's pretty much as in western fencing, the goal is to have good workout and in matches to score points, but you hold your sword with both hands in kendo and all the rituals and names are japanese.
Kenjutsu is the collective name of a couple of extant traditional japanese fencing. The focus is always on applicability, i.e. the techniques and training are geared to live after a bout with someone else when one or both have razor sharp sword. In training one normally don't wear the same armor as in kendo, save for the gloves in some cases and the sword replica are usually bokken (wooden sword). The training is usually geared to train the style specific kata (set of fixed patterns and forms) that contain that styles essence. These katas are usually the same as thay have been since the style started. The instuctor are helping the student to understand the styles "secrets" oraly and with examples.
The mindset of someone trying to score points (kendo) and someone who knows he will die if touched with a sword (kenjutsu) are completely different.
/J
yudansha
TheGreatOne
please don't confuse somethings yourself - evolution is not rapid: never was/will be
Aiki: you are correct by saing that kendo evolved from kenjutsu as judo from jujutsu but you also have to realise that kendo is not a new art AND it's only in olympic style competitions when practitioners use bamboo for sparring. Kendo has evolved also. ONLY recently have Japanese modernized kendo to make it more accessible to people without having ages of training in order to be part of competitions. Traditional kendo is different from kenjutsu (where tradiditional kenjutsu was only used by warriors to fight battles with swords, but it evolved and the break point to kendo is not actually clear) but not by much. Steven Seagal has given interviews many, many times, and was quoted saying that he holds a high rank in kendo. Also, take a look at jujitsu vs. jujutsu - you will see some relatively close evolutionary process to judo which is not new either. Out of all grappling fighting styles, I would say that sambo is the latest evolutionary art - and there are major differences and two drastically different styles. KENDO itself has evolved - what you saw or heard (and what you based your reply on) is purely based on the sort of 'commercial' sport: meaning that sort of fighting was mainly introduced to attract audience as it can get quite intense for a viewer having them very excited (kind of like what happened in the times of Ali with heavy weight boxing).
Aiki: you are correct by saing that kendo evolved from kenjutsu as judo from jujutsu but you also have to realise that kendo is not a new art AND it's only in olympic style competitions when practitioners use bamboo for sparring. Kendo has evolved also. ONLY recently have Japanese modernized kendo to make it more accessible to people without having ages of training in order to be part of competitions. Traditional kendo is different from kenjutsu (where tradiditional kenjutsu was only used by warriors to fight battles with swords, but it evolved and the break point to kendo is not actually clear) but not by much. Steven Seagal has given interviews many, many times, and was quoted saying that he holds a high rank in kendo. Also, take a look at jujitsu vs. jujutsu - you will see some relatively close evolutionary process to judo which is not new either. Out of all grappling fighting styles, I would say that sambo is the latest evolutionary art - and there are major differences and two drastically different styles. KENDO itself has evolved - what you saw or heard (and what you based your reply on) is purely based on the sort of 'commercial' sport: meaning that sort of fighting was mainly introduced to attract audience as it can get quite intense for a viewer having them very excited (kind of like what happened in the times of Ali with heavy weight boxing).
Littledragon
Above The Law
Great info thanks guys!
yudansha
TheGreatOne
Here's some background on swordsmanship arts and their evolvement:
The 'do' forms are those used to improve the self.
The 'jutsu' forms concentrate on teaching the techniques of war (including battlefield strategies).
However, this is a modern convention, not something that reflects historical usage of the suffixes. Therefore, what now is called kenjutsu may have once been referred to as kendo.
Furthermore, kenjutsu has a more complete curriculum in terms of sword techniques. The art of winning real fights with real swords is kenjutsu. The primary goal of kenjutsu is victory over opponents, whereas the primary goal of kendo is to improve oneself through the study of the sword.
There is also iaido which is purely a study of drawing the sword and perfecting such techniques (only a potential for attack in terms of self-defense). There also many others involving sword techniques such as batto-jutsu (iaijutsu - very very rare, you'd be very fortunate to find and commit to such study), tameshi-giri ... Hundreds of years ago, many practitioners named their styles differently but all comprised the curricula of sword technique; meaning that what one ryu (school of thought/art) called kendo (or kenjutsu, or iaijutsu) in the 15th century is actually not exactly the same as what kendo represents today.
The 'do' forms are those used to improve the self.
The 'jutsu' forms concentrate on teaching the techniques of war (including battlefield strategies).
However, this is a modern convention, not something that reflects historical usage of the suffixes. Therefore, what now is called kenjutsu may have once been referred to as kendo.
Furthermore, kenjutsu has a more complete curriculum in terms of sword techniques. The art of winning real fights with real swords is kenjutsu. The primary goal of kenjutsu is victory over opponents, whereas the primary goal of kendo is to improve oneself through the study of the sword.
There is also iaido which is purely a study of drawing the sword and perfecting such techniques (only a potential for attack in terms of self-defense). There also many others involving sword techniques such as batto-jutsu (iaijutsu - very very rare, you'd be very fortunate to find and commit to such study), tameshi-giri ... Hundreds of years ago, many practitioners named their styles differently but all comprised the curricula of sword technique; meaning that what one ryu (school of thought/art) called kendo (or kenjutsu, or iaijutsu) in the 15th century is actually not exactly the same as what kendo represents today.
Yudansha, I have a hard time following your info here. first it seems like you contradict what I wrote but after reading it over a couple of times I'm not so sure... It feels that you are first saying one thing and then another.
Steven Seagal, to the best of my knowledge has not (or very briefly) studied kendo (as in modern sports oriented kendo), but he has studied Yaguy Shinkage ryu kenjutsu for a long and intence time and most probably been handed some sort of certificate of profficiency. Sometimes instructors of kenjutsu refere to what they are doing as kendo and infact aren't differentiating the two terms. However people doing kendo (as the modern version of it under e.g. All Japan Kendo Fedaration) never refer to what they are doing as kenjutsu as this term is exlusively refering to fencing within a particular traditional school or style such as Kashima shin ryu and Yagyu Shinkage ryu etc. In Kendo there are no different styles, only different national and international organisations. A kenjutsu school has a headmaster and a founder and the training is geard toward being able to survive and/or kill, however within modern kendo there is no head master and founder only a set of katas that were developed once by a commity of high ranked kenjutsu instructors from different schools in the same spirit as Kano did with jujutsu - judo, and the training is generally geard not so much toward learning these katas anymore but toward sparring and competition in order to strengthen the spirit and character (main goal of kendo, but only good spinoffs in kenjutsu!).
I am btw training kendo whenever I have the time outside work, family and aikido, which is very rarely. If I get the chance I will definitively start in a kenjutsu school as I'm not much for trying to score points (Kendo).
/J
Steven Seagal, to the best of my knowledge has not (or very briefly) studied kendo (as in modern sports oriented kendo), but he has studied Yaguy Shinkage ryu kenjutsu for a long and intence time and most probably been handed some sort of certificate of profficiency. Sometimes instructors of kenjutsu refere to what they are doing as kendo and infact aren't differentiating the two terms. However people doing kendo (as the modern version of it under e.g. All Japan Kendo Fedaration) never refer to what they are doing as kenjutsu as this term is exlusively refering to fencing within a particular traditional school or style such as Kashima shin ryu and Yagyu Shinkage ryu etc. In Kendo there are no different styles, only different national and international organisations. A kenjutsu school has a headmaster and a founder and the training is geard toward being able to survive and/or kill, however within modern kendo there is no head master and founder only a set of katas that were developed once by a commity of high ranked kenjutsu instructors from different schools in the same spirit as Kano did with jujutsu - judo, and the training is generally geard not so much toward learning these katas anymore but toward sparring and competition in order to strengthen the spirit and character (main goal of kendo, but only good spinoffs in kenjutsu!).
I am btw training kendo whenever I have the time outside work, family and aikido, which is very rarely. If I get the chance I will definitively start in a kenjutsu school as I'm not much for trying to score points (Kendo).
/J
yudansha
TheGreatOne
really I don't see where this argument is going ...
I was not contradicting myself. You saw contradiction because Kendo is Kenjutsu and Kenjutsu is Kendo no matter how you put it.
When I was talking about Kendo, I certainly did NOT mean the modern Japanese version of Kendo, which is purely for points (as you have just said) and I certainly do not think that Steven Seagal would attend such tournaments to score some points (maybe scoring some with the ladies ... but that's a different discussion). You can interchange Kendo and Kenjutsu terms as they are not clearly or definitely defined. You can certainly get an authenticated certificate saying that you are a Kendo practitioner when you're not actually studying fencing strikes to get points, but rather the non-combat kenjutsu. Do not assume that what some call kendo is the only way that such art is defined, since kendo used to be more of an art and now it is more of a sport.
I was not contradicting myself. You saw contradiction because Kendo is Kenjutsu and Kenjutsu is Kendo no matter how you put it.
When I was talking about Kendo, I certainly did NOT mean the modern Japanese version of Kendo, which is purely for points (as you have just said) and I certainly do not think that Steven Seagal would attend such tournaments to score some points (maybe scoring some with the ladies ... but that's a different discussion). You can interchange Kendo and Kenjutsu terms as they are not clearly or definitely defined. You can certainly get an authenticated certificate saying that you are a Kendo practitioner when you're not actually studying fencing strikes to get points, but rather the non-combat kenjutsu. Do not assume that what some call kendo is the only way that such art is defined, since kendo used to be more of an art and now it is more of a sport.
Yudansha, I don't assume anything... That's why I thought I was clear when I used the term "Kendo" as the modern version of kendo as how it is practiced by at least 99% of the world kendoka population. We are talking about present times definition of things right? And at present time, if you go to e.g. Japan and ask anyone of where to go to be able to train kendo they most likely will point you toward a kendo club under AJKF (i.e. modern kendo). If you would ask same person in present time where to go to find a kenjutsu school they would probably be a little confused, and in lack of knowledge still point you in the same direction. At the kendo club I could ask the same Q about kenjutsu and they would probably say something like "-no no, this is a kendo club not a kenjutsu school" and "-there might be a school of katori shinto ruy down that road and to the left". Going to this KSR-school and asking still the same Q (kendo?,kenjutsu?) they would probably say "Yes this is a kendo school even if we refer to it here as kenjutsu".
Since you stated that Steven Seagal has a 8th dan in kendo I was a little curious since he 1. Studies kenjutsu and 2. In classical school "koryu" dan rank most often doesn't exists. Instead there are licences telling you that you are now at this or that level and may teach this or that to these or those The highest license one can usually get is a menkyo kaiden "litt. full transmission" which mean that you have been taught all aspects of the school and that you may teach these yourself. Sometimes a menkyo kaiden is translated (but not actually given) as equivivalent as 8th dan in modern dan-system.
/J
Since you stated that Steven Seagal has a 8th dan in kendo I was a little curious since he 1. Studies kenjutsu and 2. In classical school "koryu" dan rank most often doesn't exists. Instead there are licences telling you that you are now at this or that level and may teach this or that to these or those The highest license one can usually get is a menkyo kaiden "litt. full transmission" which mean that you have been taught all aspects of the school and that you may teach these yourself. Sometimes a menkyo kaiden is translated (but not actually given) as equivivalent as 8th dan in modern dan-system.
/J
yudansha
TheGreatOne
and so you keep at it...
Aiki - if you notice, Steven Seagal does not practice any martial arts at a pace or rate that he used to 10-15 years ago. Back then, Kendo was completely different. AND it's like I said that the difference between Kendo and Kenjutsu is not clear (you just said it that the schools can't tell one from the other - "...Yes this is a kendo school even if we refer to it here as kenjutsu") - I was just explaining the traditional differences in the 'do' and 'jutsu' to the other members. I was also saying that Steven Seagal has given many interviews in which he referred to kendo as one of his mastered skills, in which he obtains a high rank (close to the one of his Aikido). You can certainly see that Steven Seagal's physical abilities are not what they used to be (for one, his endurance level has decreased greatly - which would explain his body doubles and those potential 'breathing problems') as he decided to take on his religion and focus on spiritual beliefs and values. I don't see why you are keeping at this. I was just giving you a bit of history, but you are stuck on the present (when you damn right know that Steven Seagal was not into fencing). I don't care much for the present kendo as it turned into a money making business and away from its traditional roots. You can argue all you want, but unless you get some historical facts straight I don't see the point.
Oh and by the way, Kendo does give out ranks in dan ranks today (although not traditionally - but you can make a rough approximation in transforming the skills from one to another ranking system). Ranks go from dan 1-9 (shodan-kudan) and the rough ability levels associated with rank would be for example 'Beginner with solid baiscs' = shodan (1st dan) ... 'Master instructor' = nanadan (7th dan) as opposed to 'Senior instructor' = rokudan (6th dan); 'Kendo God' = hachidan (8th dan).
Now for modern kendo you said something about high ranks not actually being given; well, here's an official stat I found: Every year, about 1500 nanadan candidates try the hachidan exam in Japan. The pass rate is usually about 2%. These are all famous guys - tournament champions and so forth, but the hachidan exam is very rigorous.
Aiki - if you notice, Steven Seagal does not practice any martial arts at a pace or rate that he used to 10-15 years ago. Back then, Kendo was completely different. AND it's like I said that the difference between Kendo and Kenjutsu is not clear (you just said it that the schools can't tell one from the other - "...Yes this is a kendo school even if we refer to it here as kenjutsu") - I was just explaining the traditional differences in the 'do' and 'jutsu' to the other members. I was also saying that Steven Seagal has given many interviews in which he referred to kendo as one of his mastered skills, in which he obtains a high rank (close to the one of his Aikido). You can certainly see that Steven Seagal's physical abilities are not what they used to be (for one, his endurance level has decreased greatly - which would explain his body doubles and those potential 'breathing problems') as he decided to take on his religion and focus on spiritual beliefs and values. I don't see why you are keeping at this. I was just giving you a bit of history, but you are stuck on the present (when you damn right know that Steven Seagal was not into fencing). I don't care much for the present kendo as it turned into a money making business and away from its traditional roots. You can argue all you want, but unless you get some historical facts straight I don't see the point.
Oh and by the way, Kendo does give out ranks in dan ranks today (although not traditionally - but you can make a rough approximation in transforming the skills from one to another ranking system). Ranks go from dan 1-9 (shodan-kudan) and the rough ability levels associated with rank would be for example 'Beginner with solid baiscs' = shodan (1st dan) ... 'Master instructor' = nanadan (7th dan) as opposed to 'Senior instructor' = rokudan (6th dan); 'Kendo God' = hachidan (8th dan).
Now for modern kendo you said something about high ranks not actually being given; well, here's an official stat I found: Every year, about 1500 nanadan candidates try the hachidan exam in Japan. The pass rate is usually about 2%. These are all famous guys - tournament champions and so forth, but the hachidan exam is very rigorous.
Purplelotus1
Active Member
where is the professor whenyou need him