Why Haruo Matsuoka abandoned Steven Seagal?
- Thread starter Batukada
- Start date
Well why don't you ask him? I think any information about such things that is not first hand should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.
Me I think he just wanted to experience something else. Steven Seagal probably recomended him to go and see Abe sensei. Which he did.
/J
Me I think he just wanted to experience something else. Steven Seagal probably recomended him to go and see Abe sensei. Which he did.
/J
scotch.on.the.rocks
Member
Seagal may be good in Aikido, but Abe Sensei is a 10 degree black belt Aikido master that studied the Art with the Founder himself.
There's a wee bit of difference!
There's a wee bit of difference!
Amos Stevens
New Member
Welcome to the group Batukada
IN my opinion that is business between the two of them
IN my opinion that is business between the two of them
scotch.on.the.rocks
Member
So are most of the things talked about on this very website.
The question is legitimate, whether we like it or not.
The question is legitimate, whether we like it or not.
tenshinaikidoka
Martial Art Student
Matsuoka Sensei left Japan to train in the United States with his master (Seagal Shihan). Matsuoka Sensei was chief instructor and in charge of Seagal Shihans TenShin Dojo in California and ran it until 1997. Matsuoka left due to personal reasons and went back to japan for a brief period. Seagal Shihan and Abe Shihan trained regularly and Matsouka Sensei obviously trained with Abe Shihan while he was training in TenShin Dojo due to Seagal Shihans association with Abe Shihan.
When Matsuoka left TenShin and went to Japan he became affiliated with Abe Shihan and currently trains under and will receive rank from Abe Shihan. Now, to the question, the fact is, Seagal Shihan rarely does training/seminars anymore. Since he was rarely involved in his school activities in California Matsouka painfully, decided it was time to find his own path.
Not to say that Seagal does not still do some sort of seminars or training (he does on occasion and he will hold seminars with Tenshin affiliated stdents) but his active participation is non exhistant. He has students who have schools affiliated with Tenshin Aikido Federation (Santos Renshi Founder of the T.A.F., Freeman Sensei and Angulo Sensei) and there are branch dojos located in a few places in the US and abroad.
I hope this answered the question, if not, I can be a little less winded and a lot more direct.
When Matsuoka left TenShin and went to Japan he became affiliated with Abe Shihan and currently trains under and will receive rank from Abe Shihan. Now, to the question, the fact is, Seagal Shihan rarely does training/seminars anymore. Since he was rarely involved in his school activities in California Matsouka painfully, decided it was time to find his own path.
Not to say that Seagal does not still do some sort of seminars or training (he does on occasion and he will hold seminars with Tenshin affiliated stdents) but his active participation is non exhistant. He has students who have schools affiliated with Tenshin Aikido Federation (Santos Renshi Founder of the T.A.F., Freeman Sensei and Angulo Sensei) and there are branch dojos located in a few places in the US and abroad.
I hope this answered the question, if not, I can be a little less winded and a lot more direct.
I'm not sure how one gets ranking and retains it, but I asked once why black belts have a little book that they have signed each time they come to a seminar - apparently, it's so that they retain their ranking (they have to attend so many seminars per year, or lose their ranking and have to be re-tested, at least, in the federation to which I belong).
I'm assuming if Steven doesn't attend seminars any more, he technically no longer holds his ranking. I don't know if this is so; I need to find out more. (so much to find out!)
I'm assuming if Steven doesn't attend seminars any more, he technically no longer holds his ranking. I don't know if this is so; I need to find out more. (so much to find out!)
jhogan said:
I was curious, you see, as to why the black belts at the seminar I went to all had these little books they needed to have signed by the Sensei giving the seminar. When I enquired about it, I was told that they needed to attend a certain number of seminars in a year, or lose their ranking.
I guess it's different in different federations or associations? Or maybe when one achieves a certain rank, it doesn't matter any more?
As I said, I need to find out more about this.
aikibujutsu
New Member
scotch.on.the.rocks said:Seagal may be good in Aikido, but Abe Sensei is a 10 degree black belt Aikido master that studied the Art with the Founder himself.
There's a wee bit of difference!
Have you ever seen Abe Sensei's aikido? It is VERY different from what Seagal would have taught Matsuoka Sensei. Abe Sensei's aikido is very Kokyu-based and VERY soft.
My personal opinion is it is NOT as practical as Seagal's form of aikido.
aikibujutsu
New Member
tenshinaikidoka said:
Tenshin,
I am grateful for your post but can you please explain how much Seagal was involved with Abe Sensei? My reason for asking is their styles of aikido are WAY different from each other. Seagal's aikido is VERY much like Isoyama Sensei. I have seen both of them in action and had a chance to talk to people that have known both of them for 30 years and they have told me that Seagal's aikido is from Isoyama. Very direct, very martial, very irimi oriented. Abe Sensei's aikido is much different than this.
tenshinaikidoka
Martial Art Student
Well, it is known that Isoyama is the only person to which Seagal Shihan still calls his sensei. As far as Abe sensei is concerned, I beleive that Seagal andd Abe had trained together and also did caligraphy while Seagal was training/teaching in Japan at his TenShin dojo there. I am not 100% sure relating to intense training, but as you noted, Seagals Aikido is very direct and more martial than some other styles. And Isoyama Shihans Aikido is similar to Seagal Shihans because they are student/teacher. But, as things evolve, Seagal has even more direct Aikido than Isoyama. BOTH are excellent and are awsome to see in person execute moves, an experience that I wish everyone could have. Anyway, that may or may not answer your question. I beleive the caligraphy was the main focus for Seagal with Abe Sensei. And Matsuoka sensei's style is very very close still, to Seagal Shihans. Some differences since the split, but more similarities.
scotch.on.the.rocks
Member
Have you ever seen Abe Sensei's aikido? It is VERY different from what Seagal would have taught Matsuoka Sensei. Abe Sensei's aikido is very Kokyu-based and VERY soft.
My personal opinion is it is NOT as practical as Seagal's form of aikido.
Maybe that's why he left him. After 20 years or so of getting kicked in the butt, maybe he's come to realise that it was enough and decided it was time to turn towards a more mystical approach of Aikido. There are very few masters that ever received the highest rank from the Founder himself (Hikitsuchi Sensei would be another example), and those were not awarded for nothing. There are mysteries beyond mysteries in Aikido, whereas Seagal Sensei only seems to focus on the street fight kind of aspect of it. Which is good, but (apparently!) not good enough.
My personal opinion is it is NOT as practical as Seagal's form of aikido.
Maybe that's why he left him. After 20 years or so of getting kicked in the butt, maybe he's come to realise that it was enough and decided it was time to turn towards a more mystical approach of Aikido. There are very few masters that ever received the highest rank from the Founder himself (Hikitsuchi Sensei would be another example), and those were not awarded for nothing. There are mysteries beyond mysteries in Aikido, whereas Seagal Sensei only seems to focus on the street fight kind of aspect of it. Which is good, but (apparently!) not good enough.
Purplelotus1
Active Member
Do you know that he did?Batukada said:
TDWoj said:
Some orginazations require black belts to attent a certain number of training sessions to keep certified TO TEACH IN THAT SPECIFIC ORGANIZATION, i.e., in AAA for example - NOT Aikikai. You do NOT lose your balck belt if you do not attent seminars. You can get a black belt and never train again for the rest of your life, but you will still be a black belt.
aikibujutsu
New Member
Scotch and Tenshin,
I think Matsuoka very well could have been looking for the mystical side and Seagal probably pushed him toward Abe Sensei, since that is what O-Sensei taught Abe. Seagal is also a member of Omoto-Kyo and studied that religion while he was in Japan. I don't believe that Seagal learned much aikido from Abe Sensei, as their styles are WAY different.
As to Isoyama, he is 70 years old and his aikido surely has softened as he has aged. That would be normal. But the emphasis on Budo and making aikido practical is clearly in both Isoyama and Seagal's aikido. The interview that Suzi Wong posted below has Seagal talk extensively about how important irimi is in aikido. The idea that you enter on all techniques and disrupt the balance of your opponent. Isoyama has talked extensively about this as well and his aikido has always been very direct. Plus the idea that kicks should be a part of aikido and learning how to defend against all different types of kicks is what Isoyama has always talked about. Isoyama was a 3rd degree black belt in Karate before he met and trained with O-Sensei in Iwama as a boy in 1949.
I think Matsuoka very well could have been looking for the mystical side and Seagal probably pushed him toward Abe Sensei, since that is what O-Sensei taught Abe. Seagal is also a member of Omoto-Kyo and studied that religion while he was in Japan. I don't believe that Seagal learned much aikido from Abe Sensei, as their styles are WAY different.
As to Isoyama, he is 70 years old and his aikido surely has softened as he has aged. That would be normal. But the emphasis on Budo and making aikido practical is clearly in both Isoyama and Seagal's aikido. The interview that Suzi Wong posted below has Seagal talk extensively about how important irimi is in aikido. The idea that you enter on all techniques and disrupt the balance of your opponent. Isoyama has talked extensively about this as well and his aikido has always been very direct. Plus the idea that kicks should be a part of aikido and learning how to defend against all different types of kicks is what Isoyama has always talked about. Isoyama was a 3rd degree black belt in Karate before he met and trained with O-Sensei in Iwama as a boy in 1949.
tenshinaikidoka
Martial Art Student
No, your right, he did not train with Abe sensei very much, only a little, but that is how Matsouka got introduced with Abe. And Isoyama's Aikido has softened up, but he is still very very good!!!!!!
And yes, Seagal Shihan's philosophy is that Irimi is the most important movement since it is an entering technique.
And yes, Seagal Shihan's philosophy is that Irimi is the most important movement since it is an entering technique.
scotch.on.the.rocks
Member
Maybe it’s the attitude that drove Matsuoka away, who knows. Because honestly, Seagal seems to treat his partners as if they were crash test dummies and rag dolls. I’ve always found Seagal Sensei looks a wee bit self-conceited and at the same time sloppy out there on the mat. He’s hurting his defenceless disciples like they were criminals, which again, I think is rather pitiful. Not that they would end up in the hospital, God forbid, for such little things, but it’s the attitude that counts in this case. There’s always something condescending in Seagal Sensei’s phlegmatic attitude towards many of those around him. When it comes to martial vigour and inner strength, I personally like people like Chiba Sensei or Yokota Sensei better. Chiba Sensei for instance is also very exigent with his disciples, but he never gives that kind of an attitude. His posture is always in check, he’s always alert etc. Seagal Sensei sometimes seems so indifferent to the things around him, that you think he really couldn't care less. I remember the scene in Hard to Kill when Kelly LeBrock comes over with a flower in her hand while he was practicing with some sticks in the training hall. He just threw those away like they were a pair of useless matches. There’s no respect in that kind of an attitude towards such things whatsoever. The Founder used to say that you would have to honour your opponent, your partner, your hakama, your sword and so on, treat them with the greatest respect. Now Seagal Sensei doesn’t even wear the kimono anymore, I’ve seen him practicing either in blue jeans or in all kinds of colourful Chinese clothes, which I think for an Aikido master is rather outrageous. Once again, not that these things hurt anyone, but it’s the attitude, in my view, that makes you ponder about it at times. So really, I’m not surprised Matsuoka decided it was time to move on. Hell, Seagal Sensei is hardly ever around the dojo anymore, never mind his attitude when he finally does show up! To summarise, I still like the guy and I think he’s accomplished a great deal in his life, but if anyone thinks he’s flawless, he’d better think again.
tenshinaikidoka
Martial Art Student
Well, just for your info. Seagal Shihan does wear the Kimono, most recently at a seminar abroad (Sept. 2004). And as far as sloppy, not sure what you mean by that or if you have ACTUALLY trained with him, but he is far from sloppy on the mat. In fact he is one of the most technical people I have seen on the mat. And flawless, no, he is not flawless, everyone has flaws and he is no exception. And the jeans you are refering to is when training was held at his home in California and he was letting the TenShin students be there for the weekend. Anyway, he may not be the absolute greatest, but he is up there. And his attitude towards Aikido is one of love and respect, just so you know and I have not seen him treat any students like dirt, even his top ranking students!!!!
scotch.on.the.rocks
Member
Maybe the reason I state all of the above is because I like the guy too much, I don't know. I guess you only get picky and touchy like that when it comes to people you really care about. To give but another example, he always seem to perform the same technique over and over again (shomen tsuki / irimi nage, or that entire routine beginning with hand attack, hand grip, tai sabaki, sankyo and then the final projection as in shiho-nage). I was really impressed with that bit of demonstration we probably have all seen (TPBT) from his younger days, in which there was a variety of technique and a strength of execution that I for one had not seen in his later years. But now, since I criticised so much, let me just say in what I think his strength lies. I believe his strength ultimately resides in his spirit. There are many guys out there with better physical condition (tai) or better technique (waza), but very few with a stronger mental approach (shin) I think, which is the reason why I ultimately have to admit that I prefer Seagal to many others. Deshimaru Roshi talked one time in the ‘70s during a sesshin (a book was published too) about the relationship between martial arts and Zen. He was explaining that there are basically three levels of training (tai, waza, shin), but also that ultimately the spirit is the most important, because it is the one that decides the end result of a battle, which sometimes would last no more than an instant. In that instant it is the mind that decides, while the technique and the body follow. In this respect I believe he’s probably superior to many other guys, so I’ll leave it at that. But I still think he could lose a couple of pounds, just the same! 
Purplelotus1
Active Member
Okay I'm gonna do something here that I tend to shy away from and that is ask questions that probably will not be answered as seems to be the tendency in this thread. Scotch just was would be gained from him losing weight?