Didnt Steven pratice something else beside Aikido??
- Thread starter Mason
- Start date
Ok... yudansha, lets start over... This is a classical example of how misunderstanding each other leads to redundant posting of same things.
I started by explaining what Kendo and kenjutsu are and how they differ etc. after a request of what Kendo is.
For conveniency reasons I in these posts clearly separated Kendo (i.e. what is under federations e.g. all japan kendo fedaration, what is part of physical education in Japan, with shiai i.e. contests etc. what has been around in its present form since th beginning of 20th century etc. etc.) and Kenjutsu (i.e. traditional method of swordfighting, always a part of a traditional school e.g. Yaguy shinkage ryu, Kashima shinto ryu etc. been around in its precent form since 15th century and not the same as Kendo above). Kendo (as defined above) are practiced by several millions in japan and world wide. Some of them practice it more traditionally and doesn't care much for the contests etc. but it is still Kendo for them not Kenjutsu.
Kenjutsu are practiced by perhaps a couple of 1000 at most throughout the world and these are all divided in any of the traditional school (two examples above). Some of these people refer to what they are doing as kendo when speaking of what they are doing because more people know of this term, but will always refere to its school name (e.g. Tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu kenjutsu) if asked more formally. That was what I tried to convey with my fictive story before. Kendo (above!) evolved out of the traditional schools of kenjutsu YES, but that's where it ends today.
I never said that kendo doesn't give out dan ranks, in fact I said that that was one of the differences between Kendo (as I defined it above) and Kenjutsu. In Kendo there is dan examination up to hachidan i.e. 8th dan (the rest is normally given out honorally not by examination) there are also titles that instructors can get (e.g. kyoshi and hanshi - the latter at least 8th dan is required)
In Kenjutsu schools however dan ranking is not normally applied (even if it happens) instead licence of profficiency at a certain number (or all) techniques are given. It has happend that someone with a menkyo kaiden (expl. above) e.g. in jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu (another old traditional school of sword) has been awarded directly an 8th dan Kendo by the All Japan Kendo Federation. That's why sometimes a menkyo kaiden is told to be roughly equivalent to 8th dan in modern budo standards.
In Kendo (above) training normally are conducted in similar fashion around the world. Most of the time you train with your shinai (split bambu sword replica) and trains not unlike how it's done in western olympic fencing. Sometimes (not so often) the "Nippon Kendo Kata" (a set of attacks and responses developed to unite many of the traditional kenjutsu schools around 1912 by the "Dai Nippon Butokukai" (organisation established to promote the budo of japan including kenjutsu)) is practiced.
In Kenjutsuschools the school specific katas are the main focus and training are geard to learn them and all the "secrets" around them. The training is mostly done with a bokken (wooden sword) and sometimes a real sharp steel sword or a shinai (when sparring occure). Sometimes free training (sparring) is done but usually not nearly as often and it's not done to score points but to apply the principles of the school more realistically. Still usually whithout most of the protective equipment found in Kendo (above).
In Kendo the main purpose is, according to AJKF, to "mould the mind and body and to cultivate a vigorous spirit".
In Kenjutsu school the main purpose is generally to master that schools way to kill your oponent (or at least to survive yourself) in a fight where one or more has a sharp katana. A good spinoff or byproduct of this training are usually the same as what in Kendo are to main goal. But its a byproduct and not the main objective.
For more info about different kinds of kenjutsu and Koryu in general (old traditional school) www.koryu.com is a good start. For more info about Kendo www.kendo.or.jp is a good start.
Re. Steven Seagal... I never even mentioned SS doing fencing. I said that he trained/trains Yagyu Shinkage ryu Kenjutsu and that he probably has been awarded a high license in this school. So when he and other kenjutsu exponents like him say that they are training kendo and that they are highly graded in this they don't mean the art Kendo (Above) per se, but kendo (as in training to be good with the sword through any of the koryu kenjutsu schools out there) and not that they have high dan grades (even if they in fact might) but that the particular head master of that school has awarded them a licence in that particular school. *pfeeew* that was a lot....
So you see yudansha I think we are saying the same things after all... most of the times anyway.
/J
I started by explaining what Kendo and kenjutsu are and how they differ etc. after a request of what Kendo is.
For conveniency reasons I in these posts clearly separated Kendo (i.e. what is under federations e.g. all japan kendo fedaration, what is part of physical education in Japan, with shiai i.e. contests etc. what has been around in its present form since th beginning of 20th century etc. etc.) and Kenjutsu (i.e. traditional method of swordfighting, always a part of a traditional school e.g. Yaguy shinkage ryu, Kashima shinto ryu etc. been around in its precent form since 15th century and not the same as Kendo above). Kendo (as defined above) are practiced by several millions in japan and world wide. Some of them practice it more traditionally and doesn't care much for the contests etc. but it is still Kendo for them not Kenjutsu.
Kenjutsu are practiced by perhaps a couple of 1000 at most throughout the world and these are all divided in any of the traditional school (two examples above). Some of these people refer to what they are doing as kendo when speaking of what they are doing because more people know of this term, but will always refere to its school name (e.g. Tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu kenjutsu) if asked more formally. That was what I tried to convey with my fictive story before. Kendo (above!) evolved out of the traditional schools of kenjutsu YES, but that's where it ends today.
I never said that kendo doesn't give out dan ranks, in fact I said that that was one of the differences between Kendo (as I defined it above) and Kenjutsu. In Kendo there is dan examination up to hachidan i.e. 8th dan (the rest is normally given out honorally not by examination) there are also titles that instructors can get (e.g. kyoshi and hanshi - the latter at least 8th dan is required)
In Kenjutsu schools however dan ranking is not normally applied (even if it happens) instead licence of profficiency at a certain number (or all) techniques are given. It has happend that someone with a menkyo kaiden (expl. above) e.g. in jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu (another old traditional school of sword) has been awarded directly an 8th dan Kendo by the All Japan Kendo Federation. That's why sometimes a menkyo kaiden is told to be roughly equivalent to 8th dan in modern budo standards.
In Kendo (above) training normally are conducted in similar fashion around the world. Most of the time you train with your shinai (split bambu sword replica) and trains not unlike how it's done in western olympic fencing. Sometimes (not so often) the "Nippon Kendo Kata" (a set of attacks and responses developed to unite many of the traditional kenjutsu schools around 1912 by the "Dai Nippon Butokukai" (organisation established to promote the budo of japan including kenjutsu)) is practiced.
In Kenjutsuschools the school specific katas are the main focus and training are geard to learn them and all the "secrets" around them. The training is mostly done with a bokken (wooden sword) and sometimes a real sharp steel sword or a shinai (when sparring occure). Sometimes free training (sparring) is done but usually not nearly as often and it's not done to score points but to apply the principles of the school more realistically. Still usually whithout most of the protective equipment found in Kendo (above).
In Kendo the main purpose is, according to AJKF, to "mould the mind and body and to cultivate a vigorous spirit".
In Kenjutsu school the main purpose is generally to master that schools way to kill your oponent (or at least to survive yourself) in a fight where one or more has a sharp katana. A good spinoff or byproduct of this training are usually the same as what in Kendo are to main goal. But its a byproduct and not the main objective.
For more info about different kinds of kenjutsu and Koryu in general (old traditional school) www.koryu.com is a good start. For more info about Kendo www.kendo.or.jp is a good start.
Re. Steven Seagal... I never even mentioned SS doing fencing. I said that he trained/trains Yagyu Shinkage ryu Kenjutsu and that he probably has been awarded a high license in this school. So when he and other kenjutsu exponents like him say that they are training kendo and that they are highly graded in this they don't mean the art Kendo (Above) per se, but kendo (as in training to be good with the sword through any of the koryu kenjutsu schools out there) and not that they have high dan grades (even if they in fact might) but that the particular head master of that school has awarded them a licence in that particular school. *pfeeew* that was a lot....
So you see yudansha I think we are saying the same things after all... most of the times anyway.
/J
Gary Gabelhouse
New Member
SS's Kenjutsu Sensei?
Hi Aikilove and All,
You mentioned that SS has high ranking and studies Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu. Do you know who was his Sensei? Did he study under anyone in the USA or did he study only under a Japanese Sensei in Japan.
The reason I ask this is that Martial Arts writer, David Lowry, I believe, also practices Yagyu Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu, and his first Sensei was a Japanese teacher living in the USA. I wonder if SS had that same teacher?
Also, I echo others--your recent, clarification post was "right on time" as my teacher would say. Do you personally study Kenjutsu? Kendo? Iaido? Personally, I have studied Eishen Ryu Iaido for the past five years.
I did Kendo only once at a dojo in the Seattle area and found that my hack and slash, Viking style worked quite well against those classically trained in that I had no idea what I was doing, and neither did they. Hence, I was highly unpredictable and thus, hard to defend against
Best!
Gary Gabelhouse
Hi Aikilove and All,
You mentioned that SS has high ranking and studies Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu. Do you know who was his Sensei? Did he study under anyone in the USA or did he study only under a Japanese Sensei in Japan.
The reason I ask this is that Martial Arts writer, David Lowry, I believe, also practices Yagyu Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu, and his first Sensei was a Japanese teacher living in the USA. I wonder if SS had that same teacher?
Also, I echo others--your recent, clarification post was "right on time" as my teacher would say. Do you personally study Kenjutsu? Kendo? Iaido? Personally, I have studied Eishen Ryu Iaido for the past five years.
I did Kendo only once at a dojo in the Seattle area and found that my hack and slash, Viking style worked quite well against those classically trained in that I had no idea what I was doing, and neither did they. Hence, I was highly unpredictable and thus, hard to defend against
Best!
Gary Gabelhouse
I can't seem to recall the name of SS kenjutsu instructor on the top of my head anyway. But it was a japanese in Japan while he was living and breathing aikido and budo in general there.
I currently try to be in the aikido dojo every oportunity I can get, i.e. when the work and family has gotten there share of me
. Any other time over (not much) sometimes I find myself in a Kendo (as defined in my previous post) club.
Long time ago I got the oportunity to be at a seminar with a Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu guy. That is the only (almost) first hand contact I've had with kenjutsu. (There was this other time where I got to train a little Kashima Shin ryu Kenjutsu but that was very briefly).
In my aikido dojo we are training according to the late Saito Sensei of Iwamas pedagogic approach which include alot of bukiwaza (sword and staff mostly) training. That is aikido with something in your hands (Sword, staff etc.) but I wouldn't mind training authentic kenjutsu (Yagyu shinkage ryu or Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu would be interesting) but I'll have to wait until I move to a place where such training exists (not many places at that!).
Aikido the way I train it now with alot of sword and staff training satisfy my crave for budo training as of now. The future will tell...
/J
I currently try to be in the aikido dojo every oportunity I can get, i.e. when the work and family has gotten there share of me
. Any other time over (not much) sometimes I find myself in a Kendo (as defined in my previous post) club.Long time ago I got the oportunity to be at a seminar with a Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu guy. That is the only (almost) first hand contact I've had with kenjutsu. (There was this other time where I got to train a little Kashima Shin ryu Kenjutsu but that was very briefly).
In my aikido dojo we are training according to the late Saito Sensei of Iwamas pedagogic approach which include alot of bukiwaza (sword and staff mostly) training. That is aikido with something in your hands (Sword, staff etc.) but I wouldn't mind training authentic kenjutsu (Yagyu shinkage ryu or Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu would be interesting) but I'll have to wait until I move to a place where such training exists (not many places at that!).
Aikido the way I train it now with alot of sword and staff training satisfy my crave for budo training as of now. The future will tell...
/J