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Compare Aikido steven Seagal techniques and daito-ryu techniques 2

#1
There was a great discussion for my previous topic titled "Compare Aikido steven Seagal techniques and daito-ryu techniques". My intention was to introduce daito-ryu concepts to the forum people to understand the root of Steven Seagal techniques. I have simplified many things because as Aikilove said there are a majority of Aikido students in this forum.

But it is important to clarify some important points, that people did not understand well, or maybe it was not clear. First i would like to say that it is difficult for people outside Japan to be aware about how the evolution of Aikido was. To understand it you need to discuss with Master who are still living and could knew Takada or Ueshiba. That was one of my aim when i was in Japan, to understand the aikido history, and to be sure that what i was learning or what i read was right. So before to give a more precise definition of Aiki, let me be clear on one thing. What i will write here is what i could learn from people who were directly training with Takeda sensei, and kodo sensei. All those people knew Ueshiba sensei.
So we have a long discussion with them, and i should precise that those people are Inoue sensei (today headmaster of the Kodokai), Kato sensei, Shinpo sensei (kodokai masters), and of course Okamoto sensei (today headmaster of the Roppokai). Again all those people knew at least Ueshiba sensei, and Gozo Shioda sensei. Inoue sensei was a direct student of Takeda sensei before to join Kodo sensei in the Kodokai. Inoue sensei, and Okamoto owns a Menkyo kaiden, honoured by Kodo sensei. Kato sensei and Shinpo sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden four months ago from Inoue Sensei.
The first thing that i would like to you to understand is that Gozo Shioda was a not an Aikido master, he was not taught the aikido that you may know today. Gozo Shioda learned the Daito ryu aikijujutsu that Ueshiba sensei was taught himself by Sokaku. The Ueshiba sensei technique was different before and after the second world war. As you may know before the second world war Ueshiba was mainly teaching the Daito techniques exactly as he learned it from Takade sensei. After the war he began to teach a different technique, more personal, with religious principles and personal interpretations. Those period is known as the Iwama period, and it is represented today by the Iwama dojo. So you should really understand that Gozo Shioda learned the daito ryu techniques, and he was the only Ueshiba sensei student who was able to master the Aiki technique.
So now lest explain what is Aiki before to go ahead in explaining the difference between aikikai, and Daito ryu. One of the first thing you learn when you arrive in Japan, is that the Aiki has always been something very secret. Takeda sensei did not teach quite clearly what was Aiki, because he wanted people to understand it by themselves, and so there is not a clear definition of Aiki.

Basically Aiki techniques refer to techniques which combine kokyu (breath) principles and natural principles which exist around us. I would say that Aiki is physics, because it tries to apply natural phenomena in a fighting purpose. The aiki masters have clearly understood that our body is not a an isolated entity but it is integrated in a global environment. Using this fundamental principle Kokyo can exist and the aiki techniques can be born. Before to go ahead, lest talk about the jujutsu techniques. Basically the jujutsu techniques are the expression of the power of the human body. When a jujutsu techniques is executed, only the features of the power of the body (you muscle, you speed, you size, etc....) are involved, and used to perform a technique which in the case of the Daito Ryu, is represented by powerful atemi techniques, throwing techniques (Yama arashi is a famous one) and control techniques (very typical of the Daito). At this stage of the study of the daito, it is important to train your body, because a strong body is important in jujutsu techniques.

From this stage, the Daito Ryu student has learned all the jujutsu techniques only as a body movement, as the techniques are still rather big with a lot movements. The second stage is known has the Aikijujutsu techniques. In that stage less physical power is used in the techniques, the techniques are smaller, but they are still jujutsu in some way. Actually in this stage some fundamental principles of Aiki are applied in the beginning of the technique execution. Kuzushi (unbalance), Aiki age, Aiki sage are introduced, and they are used to unbalance the opponent in order to apply the jujutsu technique. The jujutsu technique will be a throwing technique, or a control technique, or whatever.
So at that stage, the student begins to use the kokyu as a driving force for his techniques, the power of the body is less used, and the techniques are faster, and smaller.
The last step is the Aiki stage where all the technique is aiki. What does it mean? Well all the principle of Aiki are applied (Kuzushi, kokyu, Metsuke, etc...) In practise the Aiki technique is based on the fact that kokyu energy (which comes from the Tanden) of the two bodies (or more) involved in a fight can be gathered in only one entity which can be used to unbalance the opponent. Be aware of the unbalance strategy because it is an important point of the Aiki. The human body has naturally a very good balance, and it is somehow difficult to unbalance a strong and powerful body. The unbalance technique of Aiki relies on the fact that it exist typical zones on the human body that are sensitive to the action of the kokyu. Applying aiki on those zones, make them weaker, and the unbalance of a body whatever his size and weight become possible. Aiki age and aiki sage are the two fundamental movements of the hands that allow this thing to happen.
So lets go more in details here.

Aiki techniques relies on this quite interesting and fascinating statement: The aiki techniques are the ability to unbalance an opponent in a interval of time that allows to control him and to finish the technique. Whatever the size or the power of this opponent, he will not be able to resist to this unbalance, and as he is unbalanced he can not do anything. It is an important point because during this interval of time, the aiki master can decide either of the life or the dead of the opponent. This moment is called the aiki situation.
The photo of Horikawa Kodo presented in this forum shows exactly the aiki situation



(this photo has been taken from a very rare video of Kodo sensei). This photo shows the moment when the opponents are unbalanced by an aiki techniques (no the two opponents are not preparing for a sankyo technique as "sorry" said Aikijones, i really laughed when i read this!!!, but sure its is difficult to understand the photo without seeing the all context of the scene), and actually the opponents will completely lose their balance in the rest of the scene. But what is amazing here is that they did it very slowly as they could not recover any balance at all. Kodo sensei was able to perform aiki techniques very fast or very slowly, showing in that sense that the time is not important, the aiki technique exists now (Ueshiba was also saying the same things).

So i explained the aiki techniques, and i hope that you see now that it is difficult to understand them. But don't think that they are
mysterious, no, they are physics.


Now lets return to the history of the aikido. Ueshiba sensei was a wonderful master of the aiki techniques. But and it is important, he did not teach them as he learned them from Takada sensei, and most of people could not understand the aiki principles. Gozo Shioda was sure his most brilliant student, and unfortunately any master of the Yoshinkan dojo today is able to perform the aiki techniques as he could. Actually most of the aiki techniques dojo are located in Hokkaido (Takeda spent major part of his life in Hokkaido). The Kodokai is only located there. Why the kodokai?
The Kodokai ryu was established by Horikawa Kodo in order to preserve the Daito Ryu tradition after the Takeda sensei death. Kodo sensei had an incredible aiki technique, as he was very small, he received mainly the teaching of aiki techniques. Actually Takada did not teach the same things for every student, and according to the size, the power of the student, Takada taught either the aiki techniques or the daito ryu jujutsu techniques. Hisa sensei and Takada's son have been taught the jujutsu techniques because of their powerful body.

Now the case of the aikikai. After the death of Ueshiba, The aikikai organization went o another direction. The aim was to teach to a lot of people, and to do so the techniques had to be simple. Moreover Ueshiba did not explain the Aiki principles, and so it was really unclear to define aiki and to explain it to people. For this reason, the aikikai made its own interpretation based on the kanjis (chinese charactesr used to write aiki) and came up with the idea of harmony of energy, love, etc (based as well on the religious and philosophical ideas of Ueshiba sensei). But the problem is that their interpretation is very different from the real aiki, because it does not have any practical application, any principles to rely on, it is just philosophy. They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist......
You have to remember that aiki was and is a fighting technique, but of course (it is important), aiki is a wonderful way to understand the nature around us, how our body is integrated in this environment. Its is a wonderful way to understand the kokyu and how it works in the human body. And it is a wonderful way to be more calm, open to people, and self-confident. But it is not a philosophy, to understand it, is important to learn it as a fighting and budo technique. That's the key. I am sorry to say that, but in aikikai (for example) aiki is not taught, that's a different thing, that's not aiki. There is no several definitions of aiki, no way, there is one aiki, only one. There is one definition of aiki, and anything else which is not based on the principle that i defined above can not be called aiki. Its like to say there are several physics, that’s not true, right? There is one aiki as there is one physics.

And to finish i would like to say few words about why aiki exists. Aiki exists because there is always a limit in the jujutsu techniques. For example a strong opponent will be difficult to control with jujutsu technique (try to apply them against a 2 meters and 130 kilos guy), or simply our body does not stay young for ever, and there in one day when it is not possible to apply jujutsu technique any more. Or for example it is difficult to apply an arm-lock against someone very strong, or to throw him or to hit him effectively. So the aiki techniques are used as high level state where the power of the technique does not rely on mechanical movements amy more(arm-lock, throwing) but on kokyu. And believe me they are extremely effective, the kuzushi techniques are very strong, as well as the aiki atemi (and yes atemi exist in aiki techniques but the way to apply them differs from the jujutsu techniques), and the control techniques which are called the shimeru techniques are simple amazing.
To summarize, i would like to say that there is only ONE Aiki, its a based on a wonderful understanding of natural phenomena by old masters, and it is a great part of the Japan tradition which has made wonderful masters and people.
All the things written here are the history and explanations exposed by the kodokai masters. You believe it or not but this the thought of people involved in the Daito-ryu and aikido story."
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#2
-bank...
What is bank? What do you mean, might you ask?
There is sand-bank, bank with money, etc etc. right... It depends in what context you put it!!!
Just like aiki!
There is Aiki as defined by Daito ryu. There is Aiki as defined by some kenjutsu schools (similar but not the same). There is aiki as defined as the word for "love". And many many more! If you ask any japanese person that is not involved in MA what aiki is they most certainly would ask you "In what context?"!! And most of them will not refer to Daito Ryu!
Actually
Basically Aiki techniques refer to techniques which combine kokyu (breath) principles and natural principles which exist around us. I would say that Aiki is physics, because it tries to apply natural phenomena in a fighting purpose. The aiki masters have clearly understood that our body is not a an isolated entity but it is integrated in a global environment. Using this fundamental principle Kokyo can exist and the aiki techniques can be born.
sounds like most aiki definition of aikido I've ever heard!!

Gozo Shioda did train before the war... but also in Iwama after the war! Takeda Sokaku himself told Ueshiba already before the war, as I mentioned in the other post, that what he was doing couldn't be called Daito Ryu anymore!
Gozo Shioda learned the daito ryu techniques, and he was the only Ueshiba sensei student who was able to master the Aiki technique.
and
Takada taught either the aiki techniques or the daito ryu jujutsu techniques. Hisa sensei and Takada's son have been taught the jujutsu techniques because of their powerful body.
What on earth are your sources for these remarkable statements?! Are you honestly saying that the successor of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Tokimune and a Menkyo Kaiden (full transmission) reciever wasn't taught aiki?!?
Now the case of the aikikai. After the death of Ueshiba, The aikikai organization went o another direction. The aim was to teach to a lot of people, and to do so the techniques had to be simple. Moreover Ueshiba did not explain the Aiki principles, and so it was really unclear to define aiki and to explain it to people. For this reason, the aikikai made its own interpretation based on the kanjis (chinese charactesr used to write aiki) and came up with the idea of harmony of energy, love, etc (based as well on the religious and philosophical ideas of Ueshiba sensei). But the problem is that their interpretation is very different from the real aiki, because it does not have any practical application, any principles to rely on, it is just philosophy. They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist......
Honestly, if you've as you say trained aikido for 10 years! and still write this kind of (excuse me) hogwash! I'm seriously starting to wonder what you actually has been training.
First of aikido is still being taught the way Ueshiba Morehei did it. At least according to all the people that acctually trained directly UNDER him I've talked to. How many of these people like Saito, Yamada, Shioda etc have you spoken about this to?
Secondly, I've used my training of aiki in aikido (the training you claim doesn't lead to ANY LEARNING AT ALL) very efficiantly more than once, one time against two attackers! So has alot others! Strange... It seems to work doesn't it? Even if we're are not suppose to learn anything from it!!
Daito Ryu fighter... I would like to know where and with who you trained aikido for 10 years. Because I would like to know how it is possible to train 10 years and not learn anything!

*sigh*
/J
 
#3
Aikilove,

You wrote : I would like to know where and with who you trained aikido for 10 years

First it is not Aikido it is daito-ryu, I think you don't read (or not understand) what i wrote. The response of your questions is here :To understand it you need to discuss with Master who are still living and could knew Takada or Ueshiba. That was one of my aim when i was in Japan, to understand the aikido history, and to be sure that what i was learning or what i read was right. So before to give a more precise definition of Aiki, let me be clear on one thing. What i will write here is what i could learn from people who were directly training with Takeda sensei, and kodo sensei. All those people knew Ueshiba sensei.
So we have a long discussion with them, and i should precise that those people are Inoue sensei (today headmaster of the Kodokai), Kato sensei, Shinpo sensei (kodokai masters), and of course Okamoto sensei (today headmaster of the Roppokai). Again all those people knew at least Ueshiba sensei, and Gozo Shioda sensei. Inoue sensei was a direct student of Takeda sensei before to join Kodo sensei in the Kodokai. Inoue sensei, and Okamoto owns a Menkyo kaiden, honoured by Kodo sensei. Kato sensei and Shinpo sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden four months ago from Inoue Sensei.


Second what is your Background of Aiki to tell what i wrote is "hogwash" Did you study in Japan?Did you study with great Masters like me???I trained in Aikido just in France (before i go in Japan) with people that have the same thought like you and which are sure that there are the truth. No, you have not the truth!!!!!

You wrote : Because I would like to know how it is possible to train 10 years and not learn anything!
I learned more and more things what you learned. Some things you will never learn it because i think you are blind by wrong concepts of modern Aikido.

I wrote : Now the case of the aikikai. After the death of Ueshiba, The aikikai organization went o another direction. The aim was to teach to a lot of people, and to do so the techniques had to be simple. Moreover Ueshiba did not explain the Aiki principles, and so it was really unclear to define aiki and to explain it to people. For this reason, the aikikai made its own interpretation based on the kanjis (chinese charactesr used to write aiki) and came up with the idea of harmony of energy, love, etc (based as well on the religious and philosophical ideas of Ueshiba sensei). But the problem is that their interpretation is very different from the real aiki, because it does not have any practical application, any principles to rely on, it is just philosophy. They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist......

YEs yes yes yes it is the truth. Where did you learn Aiki history?? In books!!!
Me i learned it in Japan with great master like i said above. Read and Read again this sentence : "All the things written here are the history and explanations exposed by the kodokai masters. You believe it or not but this the thought of people involved in the Daito-ryu and aikido story."

Good tip for you : read again my topic and reflect on what i wrote about Aiki. Maybe you will begin to understand!!!!and i hope you will never write this : Secondly, I've used my training of aiki in aikido (the training you claim doesn't lead to ANY LEARNING AT ALL) very efficiantly more than once, one time against two attackers

You defend your Aikido. I respest this!!!but in the world there are people with more experience compare you, that learned secret and traditionnal things that you don't know, some reality of history that you don't know. So, when one person try to introduce some tips of history, some secrets of Japan traditions because this concepts are only taught in a particular part of the world (Hokkaido-Japan) i hope you will never say what this person say is "hogwash" .

To finish: before to reply to a topic, be sure that you have correctly read what is wrote!!! The response of your question What on earth are your sources for these remarkable statements? is above.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#4
Yes! And your sources as great as they might be are not sources of AIKIDO are they?!?
The hogwash-part refered to your statement, which I quoted and nothing else, about that in aikido in general and aikikai in particular one doesn't learn anything!!
You say that you learned the history of aikido from daito ryu masters. I say, unless they have specifically studied the history of aikido, not Daito ryu, on their free time they are not relieable sources of the history of AIKIDO. I have studied with Saito, Yamada, Sugano and Isoyama whom all are/were a part of aikido/aikikai history long before Morehei Ueshiba died. I tend to believe them and Stanley Pranin, the foremost Aikido and Daito ryu historian in the world, before "masters" of Daito Ryu.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dispute that your masters know their Daito ryu history. But I do dispute that, if what you wrote comes from their mouth, they know anything about the history and techniques of aikido/aikikai more than the rudimentary of Takeda/Ueshiba connections just as little as e.g. Saito Sensei knew about techniques and history of Daito Ryu just because he was a master of Aikido!

Sorry about 10 years. I guess it should be 18 years of aikido!! Even worse... You state that you have studied aikido for 18 years, and still you don't seem to have learned anything since you claim that
They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist......
Nothing can be learned!!
If this is the case then I guess I and all of those in the world that are/have been using aikido are/were dreaming or something because it sure seemed like we have learned something.
I have nothing against you introducing tips about the history of Daito Ryu, but when you claim outragous things about aikido and it's history I have to step in, since most of the readers havn't read the history of aikido and might actually believe you.

Actually why don't you mail your paragraph about the history of aikikai in www.aikidojournal.com forum? I do believe you would be enlightened surpriced by the responses.

/J
 
#5
but what you don't understand is that the daito histoty and Aikido histoty is linked. The histoty of Aikido is not just Saito (with great respects for him), Yamada..............etc...............There are somethings before them.

you wrote : I tend to believe them and Stanley Pranin, the foremost Aikido and Daito ryu historian in the world, before "masters" of Daito Ryu.
Sorry but masters of daito-ryu lived in the same period that Ueshiba Sensei, Stanley Pranin didn't!!!
 
#6
but what you don't understand is that the daito histoty and Aikido histoty is linked. The histoty of Aikido is not just Saito (with great respects for him), Yamada..............etc...............There are somethings before them.

you wrote : I tend to believe them and Stanley Pranin, the foremost Aikido and Daito ryu historian in the world, before "masters" of Daito Ryu.
Sorry but masters of daito-ryu lived in the same period that Ueshiba Sensei, Stanley Pranin didn't!!!

"They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist...... "
Yes it is true, when i see student of Aikikai style performing techniques i want to smile!!!!!there are any martiality and reality in their techniques.

But Iwama Aikido (Saito teaching) is powerful, efficient......very respected by daito community. It is surprising that you studied with Saito and Yamada because they have different teaching of Aikido. Really, i doubt on the truth of your background. I think that all what you say is read in Aikidojournalsite. You say that what i say is the not the truth. Why what is indicated in this site is the truth????
Be sure that if i post my topic in Aikidojournal forum, i will have the same reactions like you. But sorry the people of this forum is not a reference for me.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#7
I have never said anything about no link between Aikido and Daito ryu. In fact I have stated clearly that I belive there is a strong link! But link or not. This doesn't mean that masters of Daito Ryu know more about the history of aikikai than a Historian like Pranin. Stanley Pranin has done more research and interviews about people of Daito Ryu and Aikido than anyone else. So I tend to believe much of what he says.

My grandfather lived at the same time as Ueshiba Morehei. That doesn't mean that he know squat about the history of Aikido. And who has ever claimed that the history of aikido is Saito? I said that e.g. Saito is a part of aikido history just like many other great shihan. And Stanley has interviewed them all!

Have you studied with Saito Sensei or Yamada Sensei or Sugano sensei or Isoyama Sensei? I have! If you havn't then what the h**l do you know about these people and how they teach and perform aikido! I happen to visit New York on a regular basis and I always train at NY-aikikai when I do, Yamada and Sugano are the instructors there! My home dojo is Iwama style, and I have trained there since I started! I have been taught directly by Saito Morihiro several times! I have been to seminars with Tamura, Fujita and Isoyama, all direct student of Morehei Ueshiba. I might or might not prefer some teachers in front of others but I regard e.g. Yamada as high as Saito even if I prefer Saito as a teacher.
How can your Daito Ryu masters regard Saito highly if he was doing aikikai aikido that doesn't teach you anything as you say?!?

/J
 
#8
I might throw my OPINION in here on this. Mr. Pranin IS the guy with the knowledge on Aikido and Daito-ryu history. I trust him too. I can't say for certain why there is such a big difference in the aikido community in styles but I can say that I feel that the Aikido taught in Iwama was MUCH DIFFERENT from the aikido that was taught at Hombu Dojo.

I don't want to start a flame war with those that train with people that were taught at the Hombu Dojo but there is a huge difference in the way the techniques are performed and in the amount of Aikiken and Aikijo that were taught as well.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#9
Isoyama, thank you for your input.
I can agree that there is a different in how aikido was taught by Saito compared to people at hombu (except himself... he did conduct sundays classes himself in Hombu dojo for a long time), but only in the aspect of that everyone teach aikido differently. Isoyama, even if he is Iwama native, doesn't teach the techniques exactly the way Saito did it. I agree that there are in general more focus on flowing form from start among hombu dojo instructors, but that is only the pedagogic approach. Most of the aikikai shihan I have trained with (see above) have had strong basics, even if some of them starts out from static and some of them does it flowing from start.

Saito Morihiro was famous for stating things like "this is how they do it in Tokyo (hombu dojo), its wrong! This is how you have to do it" etc etc. As much as I love his approach to teaching aikido, I don't agree or like that kind of statements.
Aikikai today, even within hombu dojo, contain alot of teachers with very different approaches. I would say it is a continous scale between late Saito Sensei (or equivalent) with a strong focus on static approach to basic combined with alot of bukiwaza (aiki-weapon), via people like Fujita Sensei that focus alot on basic movements and flowing techniques and that does not endorse bukiwaza training at all, to instructors like Watanabe Sensei with his famous mysterious "no touch trows". And everything in between!

/J
 
#10
daito-ryu fighter said:


(this photo has been taken from a very rare video of Kodo sensei). This photo shows the moment when the opponents are unbalanced by an aiki techniques (no the two opponents are not preparing for a sankyo technique as "sorry" said Aikijones, i really laughed when i read this!!!, but sure its is difficult to understand the photo without seeing the all context of the scene), and actually the opponents will completely lose their balance in the rest of the scene. But what is amazing here is that they did it very slowly as they could not recover any balance at all. Kodo sensei was able to perform aiki techniques very fast or very slowly, showing in that sense that the time is not important, the aiki technique exists now (Ueshiba was also saying the same things).
Ryu-Fighter

I see by your comment you are missing the point. Without you touching your ukemi as you suggested was done by the teacher to off balance the students in this photo. Sounds a little ridiculous. Like I said it "defies physics"​
I understand that O'sensei was taped in the same manner a lot on his video collection. So the only conclusion I could come up with (here) down on earth is A) Of course you will respect your teacher and at 80 years of age you better not hurt (touch) the teacher or you will have to suffer from the students. I think the reason Aikido is declining in America is because people like yourself are teaching this theory of being in "La La Land" and not being realistic, the basics. "Hense your thoughts on the picture." If you call "Aiki" respect then of course I will believe the photo. However since you are defineing it as a reality, it is hard to swallow some of the things you say.​
Im glad I can amuse you because you are doing the same for me thanks.​
Defination of Technique: a way of doing something practical.
 
#11
Aikijones,
"Without you touching your ukemi as you suggested"
You didn't understand anything!!!!!!The photo show the end of the technique. At the beginning the two uke catch hold of the arms (strongly) of the Sensei.
You wrote : I think the reason Aikido is declining in America The photo represent a Daito Master not a Aikidoka.

Read and read again this : The aiki techniques are the ability to unbalance an opponent in a interval of time that allows to control him and to finish the technique. Whatever the size or the power of this opponent, he will not be able to resist to this unbalance, and as he is unbalanced he can not do anything. It is an important point because during this interval of time, the aiki master can decide either of the life or the dead of the opponent. This moment is called the aiki situation.

What is explained is completely different of poor techniques performed in some Aikido dojo when a man control a opponent without touch him. Here, it is the end of the technique, it is the pinning of the opponent. Before to do that, the Sensei touch his opponent. Because the opponent's were placed in a certain angle and because aiki was applied, the Sensei can release his hands from Uke without they can move.

read and read again this : So i explained the aiki techniques, and i hope that you see now that it is difficult to understand them. But don't think that they are
mysterious, no, they are physics.


Like Aikilove, there are things that you don't know. So before say stupidity("because people like yourself are teaching this theory of being in "La La Land" and not being realistic, the basics. "Hense your thoughts on the picture." If you call "Aiki" respect then of course I will believe the photo") reflect on what is wrote.
 
#12
Daito-ryu Fighter,

I have seen the type of Daito-ryu Kodo Horikawa Sensei did and the kind of Daito-ryu that the Roppokai does and it WON'T work in a real situation. That soft, mystical aiki is great in the dojo, but it won't work in a real fight situation.

Please explain to me how you are going to make that soft aiki work on a 300 pounder wanting to tear your head off? You are NOT going to be able to unbalance that 300 pounder using aiki like that. It works great when you have a cooperative partner or uke but wouldn't stand a chance against that 300 pounder.
 
#13
Ouffffffffffffffff.....isoyama

read an read again this : And to finish i would like to say few words about why aiki exists. Aiki exists because there is always a limit in the jujutsu techniques. For example a strong opponent will be difficult to control with jujutsu technique (try to apply them against a 2 meters and 130 kilos guy), or simply our body does not stay young for ever, and there in one day when it is not possible to apply jujutsu technique any more. Or for example it is difficult to apply an arm-lock against someone very strong, or to throw him or to hit him effectively. So the aiki techniques are used as high level state where the power of the technique does not rely on mechanical movements amy more(arm-lock, throwing) but on kokyu. And believe me they are extremely effective, the kuzushi techniques are very strong, as well as the aiki atemi (and yes atemi exist in aiki techniques but the way to apply them differs from the jujutsu techniques), and the control techniques which are called the shimeru techniques are simple amazing.

and this : From this stage, the Daito Ryu student has learned all the jujutsu techniques only as a body movement, as the techniques are still rather big with a lot movements. The second stage is known has the Aikijujutsu techniques. In that stage less physical power is used in the techniques, the techniques are smaller, but they are still jujutsu in some way. Actually in this stage some fundamental principles of Aiki are applied in the beginning of the technique execution. Kuzushi (unbalance), Aiki age, Aiki sage are introduced, and they are used to unbalance the opponent in order to apply the jujutsu technique. The jujutsu technique will be a throwing technique, or a control technique, or whatever.
So at that stage, the student begins to use the kokyu as a driving force for his techniques, the power of the body is less used, and the techniques are faster, and smaller.
The last step is the Aiki stage where all the technique is aiki. What does it mean? Well all the principle of Aiki are applied (Kuzushi, kokyu, Metsuke, etc...) In practise the Aiki technique is based on the fact that kokyu energy (which comes from the Tanden) of the two bodies (or more) involved in a fight can be gathered in only one entity which can be used to unbalance the opponent. Be aware of the unbalance strategy because it is an important point of the Aiki. The human body has naturally a very good balance, and it is somehow difficult to unbalance a strong and powerful body. The unbalance technique of Aiki relies on the fact that it exist typical zones on the human body that are sensitive to the action of the kokyu. Applying aiki on those zones, make them weaker, and the unbalance of a body whatever his size and weight become possible. Aiki age and aiki sage are the two fundamental movements of the hands that allow this thing to happen.


and this : His skills were such that, as soon as he was touched by his opponent, his opponent seemed to lose all control over his balance and strength, and would be thrown with ease. How he accomplished this was hard to explain, even if one saw it with one's own eyes."

~ Sumitomo Arima
Mr. Arima commenting on Shiro Saigo's oshikiuchi techniques


I must remember you that Takeda Sensei (and Ueshiba Sensei) beat some opponants with the same principle of Aiki illustrated above in real fighting situation.
I ask you again : where did you study Daito and with who?????????????

Sincerely , i think we must stop this discussion about daito and Aiki. There are many things to explain and it's difficult for me to explain with only words. So just answer to my question and please stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT CAN'T BE EXPLAINED BY WORDS
 
#14
There are also many things that can't be explained when they are shown. I have seen and felt the soft aiki that was used by Horikawa Sensei. It doesn't work in a real situation. They were all used on other Japanese men whom were the same size as them. I would love to see you demonstrate that on me. It won't work. Jujutsu techniques without aiki won't work on some people. That is true. But you seem to not understand that atemi can be used as aiki. Go ask Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei if atemi isn't used against much bigger and stronger opponents. As I have said many times on this subject, the hard form of aiki was used on the battlefield when a Samurai lost his sword and was in a hand to hand fighting situation. Takeda Sensei was known for his heavy use of atemi when applying Daito-ryu techniques. Hell, even his own son stated the importance of atemi and using strikes and kicks to break the balance of your opponent and allow for technique to occur.

Daito-ryu fighter, have you ever used your aiki on someone much larger than yourself? I am asking this because using it on another man your size or smaller is not what I am talking about. Isoyama Sensei also learned how to incorporate Aikido on much larger American military men than himself. He learned the importance of timing and atemi in making Aikido work on someone much larger than himself.

There is a great article on the subject of atemi in Aikido that you should read.

http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm
 
#15
Sokaku's aiki-jujutsu is based on a technical essence that enables the exponent to apply severe measures against an assailant. Ample use is made of atemi, or blows directed against anatomical weaknesses; and atemi always precede the seizure and subduing of an assailant.....

Pressure point knowledge is necessary. Techniques make great use of pain. Strikes are frequent.
 
#16
Aikilove do you understand what you see??? The two Uke are blocked without Kodo Sensei touch them. I can tell you just this : He applied Aiki in particular point of Uke body.

Ryu-Fighter,

The words above are your own words underlined. You say "without Kodo Sensei touch them." I am commenting on your own words, if you would have never used the word "without." I would have not given you a reply. But I am very pleased you got the point I was tring to say in the message. You read between the lines very well, lol considering how your last reply was stated. There is hope for you still "young grasshopper." Much love babyboy.​
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#18
Ok... I think this discussion leads no further. As usual, misunderstanding seems to be the root of the discussion going out of hand, and bad proofreading and communication seems, as always, to be the root of misunderstanding.
When two people talk directly to each other, many subtle points gets through because of body language and use of voice. In a forum like this no such help exists so extra care needs to be taken to write as clear and precise as possible, in order for the true meaning of a post to get through to the reader. We must try to minimize the possibilities for misinterpertations by proofreading what we wrote and to use a clear language.

Ps. This goes to the reader as well. One needs to read carefully without drawing hastely conclusions before everything (every word) has been read. Ds.

/J
 
#19
Yes Aikijones but i intoduced lot of details compare what i wrote firstly.

The aiki techniques are the ability to unbalance an opponent in a interval of time that allows to control him and to finish the technique. Whatever the size or the power of this opponent, he will not be able to resist to this unbalance, and as he is unbalanced he can not do anything. It is an important point because during this interval of time, the aiki master can decide either of the life or the dead of the opponent. This moment is called the aiki situation.

What is explained is completely different of poor techniques performed in some Aikido dojo when a man control a opponent without touch him. Here, it is the end of the technique, it is the pinning of the opponent. Before to do that, the Sensei touch his opponent. Because the opponent's were placed in a certain angle and because aiki was applied, the Sensei can release his hands from Uke without they can move.


I say it again it is not easy to explain Aiki only with words!!!
 

suziwong

Administrator
Staff member
#20
Aikido and The Techniques of Aikido
Aikido offers its students the opportunity to experience both the physical and mental rewards that can be achieved through the martial arts.
Buzzle Staff Editor, 7/14/2000

Most people choose to avoid confrontation if at all possible, but in some instances, confrontation is simply unavoidable. Aikido teaches its students to avoid confrontation, but it also teaches them how to properly defend themselves when confrontation is imminent. Aikido is a martial art that offers individuals an opportunity to learn controlled physical response techniques that will serve to ensure their safety while limiting the amount of damage inflicted upon their adversaries. Martial arts are popular throughout the world and many people choose to practice the martial arts for reasons other than physical confrontations.

Exercise and the relief of excess stress and energy are commonly cited as reasons for studying various martial arts. Karate and Judo rank among the most popular of the martial arts practiced by Americans and both of these disciplines offer instructions for offensive or aggressive striking motions. Tai Chi is one of the more meditative of the martial arts, focusing on form, concentration, and mental balance. Students of Tai Chi practice exaggeratedly slow striking techniques without ever facing an opponent.

Aikido falls somewhere between the aggression of Karate and the spiritual meditation of Tai Chi. However, it is generally considered to be one of the gentler martial arts. Most Aikido schools place no emphasis on offensive tactics and many advanced students are capable of using the offensive force of an adversary against them, often throwing opponents to the ground with seemingly effortless motions. Whether you are an aggressive or a passive personality, Aikido offers a mental and physical challenge that will certainly pique your interest in the martial arts.

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I found this and may be you will be interested it !!

in oneneesss