daito-ryu fighter
New Member
There was a great discussion for my previous topic titled "Compare Aikido steven Seagal techniques and daito-ryu techniques". My intention was to introduce daito-ryu concepts to the forum people to understand the root of Steven Seagal techniques. I have simplified many things because as Aikilove said there are a majority of Aikido students in this forum.
But it is important to clarify some important points, that people did not understand well, or maybe it was not clear. First i would like to say that it is difficult for people outside Japan to be aware about how the evolution of Aikido was. To understand it you need to discuss with Master who are still living and could knew Takada or Ueshiba. That was one of my aim when i was in Japan, to understand the aikido history, and to be sure that what i was learning or what i read was right. So before to give a more precise definition of Aiki, let me be clear on one thing. What i will write here is what i could learn from people who were directly training with Takeda sensei, and kodo sensei. All those people knew Ueshiba sensei.
So we have a long discussion with them, and i should precise that those people are Inoue sensei (today headmaster of the Kodokai), Kato sensei, Shinpo sensei (kodokai masters), and of course Okamoto sensei (today headmaster of the Roppokai). Again all those people knew at least Ueshiba sensei, and Gozo Shioda sensei. Inoue sensei was a direct student of Takeda sensei before to join Kodo sensei in the Kodokai. Inoue sensei, and Okamoto owns a Menkyo kaiden, honoured by Kodo sensei. Kato sensei and Shinpo sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden four months ago from Inoue Sensei.
The first thing that i would like to you to understand is that Gozo Shioda was a not an Aikido master, he was not taught the aikido that you may know today. Gozo Shioda learned the Daito ryu aikijujutsu that Ueshiba sensei was taught himself by Sokaku. The Ueshiba sensei technique was different before and after the second world war. As you may know before the second world war Ueshiba was mainly teaching the Daito techniques exactly as he learned it from Takade sensei. After the war he began to teach a different technique, more personal, with religious principles and personal interpretations. Those period is known as the Iwama period, and it is represented today by the Iwama dojo. So you should really understand that Gozo Shioda learned the daito ryu techniques, and he was the only Ueshiba sensei student who was able to master the Aiki technique.
So now lest explain what is Aiki before to go ahead in explaining the difference between aikikai, and Daito ryu. One of the first thing you learn when you arrive in Japan, is that the Aiki has always been something very secret. Takeda sensei did not teach quite clearly what was Aiki, because he wanted people to understand it by themselves, and so there is not a clear definition of Aiki.
Basically Aiki techniques refer to techniques which combine kokyu (breath) principles and natural principles which exist around us. I would say that Aiki is physics, because it tries to apply natural phenomena in a fighting purpose. The aiki masters have clearly understood that our body is not a an isolated entity but it is integrated in a global environment. Using this fundamental principle Kokyo can exist and the aiki techniques can be born. Before to go ahead, lest talk about the jujutsu techniques. Basically the jujutsu techniques are the expression of the power of the human body. When a jujutsu techniques is executed, only the features of the power of the body (you muscle, you speed, you size, etc....) are involved, and used to perform a technique which in the case of the Daito Ryu, is represented by powerful atemi techniques, throwing techniques (Yama arashi is a famous one) and control techniques (very typical of the Daito). At this stage of the study of the daito, it is important to train your body, because a strong body is important in jujutsu techniques.
From this stage, the Daito Ryu student has learned all the jujutsu techniques only as a body movement, as the techniques are still rather big with a lot movements. The second stage is known has the Aikijujutsu techniques. In that stage less physical power is used in the techniques, the techniques are smaller, but they are still jujutsu in some way. Actually in this stage some fundamental principles of Aiki are applied in the beginning of the technique execution. Kuzushi (unbalance), Aiki age, Aiki sage are introduced, and they are used to unbalance the opponent in order to apply the jujutsu technique. The jujutsu technique will be a throwing technique, or a control technique, or whatever.
So at that stage, the student begins to use the kokyu as a driving force for his techniques, the power of the body is less used, and the techniques are faster, and smaller.
The last step is the Aiki stage where all the technique is aiki. What does it mean? Well all the principle of Aiki are applied (Kuzushi, kokyu, Metsuke, etc...) In practise the Aiki technique is based on the fact that kokyu energy (which comes from the Tanden) of the two bodies (or more) involved in a fight can be gathered in only one entity which can be used to unbalance the opponent. Be aware of the unbalance strategy because it is an important point of the Aiki. The human body has naturally a very good balance, and it is somehow difficult to unbalance a strong and powerful body. The unbalance technique of Aiki relies on the fact that it exist typical zones on the human body that are sensitive to the action of the kokyu. Applying aiki on those zones, make them weaker, and the unbalance of a body whatever his size and weight become possible. Aiki age and aiki sage are the two fundamental movements of the hands that allow this thing to happen.
So lets go more in details here.
Aiki techniques relies on this quite interesting and fascinating statement: The aiki techniques are the ability to unbalance an opponent in a interval of time that allows to control him and to finish the technique. Whatever the size or the power of this opponent, he will not be able to resist to this unbalance, and as he is unbalanced he can not do anything. It is an important point because during this interval of time, the aiki master can decide either of the life or the dead of the opponent. This moment is called the aiki situation.
The photo of Horikawa Kodo presented in this forum shows exactly the aiki situation
(this photo has been taken from a very rare video of Kodo sensei). This photo shows the moment when the opponents are unbalanced by an aiki techniques (no the two opponents are not preparing for a sankyo technique as "sorry" said Aikijones, i really laughed when i read this!!!, but sure its is difficult to understand the photo without seeing the all context of the scene), and actually the opponents will completely lose their balance in the rest of the scene. But what is amazing here is that they did it very slowly as they could not recover any balance at all. Kodo sensei was able to perform aiki techniques very fast or very slowly, showing in that sense that the time is not important, the aiki technique exists now (Ueshiba was also saying the same things).
So i explained the aiki techniques, and i hope that you see now that it is difficult to understand them. But don't think that they are
mysterious, no, they are physics.
Now lets return to the history of the aikido. Ueshiba sensei was a wonderful master of the aiki techniques. But and it is important, he did not teach them as he learned them from Takada sensei, and most of people could not understand the aiki principles. Gozo Shioda was sure his most brilliant student, and unfortunately any master of the Yoshinkan dojo today is able to perform the aiki techniques as he could. Actually most of the aiki techniques dojo are located in Hokkaido (Takeda spent major part of his life in Hokkaido). The Kodokai is only located there. Why the kodokai?
The Kodokai ryu was established by Horikawa Kodo in order to preserve the Daito Ryu tradition after the Takeda sensei death. Kodo sensei had an incredible aiki technique, as he was very small, he received mainly the teaching of aiki techniques. Actually Takada did not teach the same things for every student, and according to the size, the power of the student, Takada taught either the aiki techniques or the daito ryu jujutsu techniques. Hisa sensei and Takada's son have been taught the jujutsu techniques because of their powerful body.
Now the case of the aikikai. After the death of Ueshiba, The aikikai organization went o another direction. The aim was to teach to a lot of people, and to do so the techniques had to be simple. Moreover Ueshiba did not explain the Aiki principles, and so it was really unclear to define aiki and to explain it to people. For this reason, the aikikai made its own interpretation based on the kanjis (chinese charactesr used to write aiki) and came up with the idea of harmony of energy, love, etc (based as well on the religious and philosophical ideas of Ueshiba sensei). But the problem is that their interpretation is very different from the real aiki, because it does not have any practical application, any principles to rely on, it is just philosophy. They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist......
You have to remember that aiki was and is a fighting technique, but of course (it is important), aiki is a wonderful way to understand the nature around us, how our body is integrated in this environment. Its is a wonderful way to understand the kokyu and how it works in the human body. And it is a wonderful way to be more calm, open to people, and self-confident. But it is not a philosophy, to understand it, is important to learn it as a fighting and budo technique. That's the key. I am sorry to say that, but in aikikai (for example) aiki is not taught, that's a different thing, that's not aiki. There is no several definitions of aiki, no way, there is one aiki, only one. There is one definition of aiki, and anything else which is not based on the principle that i defined above can not be called aiki. Its like to say there are several physics, that’s not true, right? There is one aiki as there is one physics.
And to finish i would like to say few words about why aiki exists. Aiki exists because there is always a limit in the jujutsu techniques. For example a strong opponent will be difficult to control with jujutsu technique (try to apply them against a 2 meters and 130 kilos guy), or simply our body does not stay young for ever, and there in one day when it is not possible to apply jujutsu technique any more. Or for example it is difficult to apply an arm-lock against someone very strong, or to throw him or to hit him effectively. So the aiki techniques are used as high level state where the power of the technique does not rely on mechanical movements amy more(arm-lock, throwing) but on kokyu. And believe me they are extremely effective, the kuzushi techniques are very strong, as well as the aiki atemi (and yes atemi exist in aiki techniques but the way to apply them differs from the jujutsu techniques), and the control techniques which are called the shimeru techniques are simple amazing.
To summarize, i would like to say that there is only ONE Aiki, its a based on a wonderful understanding of natural phenomena by old masters, and it is a great part of the Japan tradition which has made wonderful masters and people.
All the things written here are the history and explanations exposed by the kodokai masters. You believe it or not but this the thought of people involved in the Daito-ryu and aikido story."
But it is important to clarify some important points, that people did not understand well, or maybe it was not clear. First i would like to say that it is difficult for people outside Japan to be aware about how the evolution of Aikido was. To understand it you need to discuss with Master who are still living and could knew Takada or Ueshiba. That was one of my aim when i was in Japan, to understand the aikido history, and to be sure that what i was learning or what i read was right. So before to give a more precise definition of Aiki, let me be clear on one thing. What i will write here is what i could learn from people who were directly training with Takeda sensei, and kodo sensei. All those people knew Ueshiba sensei.
So we have a long discussion with them, and i should precise that those people are Inoue sensei (today headmaster of the Kodokai), Kato sensei, Shinpo sensei (kodokai masters), and of course Okamoto sensei (today headmaster of the Roppokai). Again all those people knew at least Ueshiba sensei, and Gozo Shioda sensei. Inoue sensei was a direct student of Takeda sensei before to join Kodo sensei in the Kodokai. Inoue sensei, and Okamoto owns a Menkyo kaiden, honoured by Kodo sensei. Kato sensei and Shinpo sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden four months ago from Inoue Sensei.
The first thing that i would like to you to understand is that Gozo Shioda was a not an Aikido master, he was not taught the aikido that you may know today. Gozo Shioda learned the Daito ryu aikijujutsu that Ueshiba sensei was taught himself by Sokaku. The Ueshiba sensei technique was different before and after the second world war. As you may know before the second world war Ueshiba was mainly teaching the Daito techniques exactly as he learned it from Takade sensei. After the war he began to teach a different technique, more personal, with religious principles and personal interpretations. Those period is known as the Iwama period, and it is represented today by the Iwama dojo. So you should really understand that Gozo Shioda learned the daito ryu techniques, and he was the only Ueshiba sensei student who was able to master the Aiki technique.
So now lest explain what is Aiki before to go ahead in explaining the difference between aikikai, and Daito ryu. One of the first thing you learn when you arrive in Japan, is that the Aiki has always been something very secret. Takeda sensei did not teach quite clearly what was Aiki, because he wanted people to understand it by themselves, and so there is not a clear definition of Aiki.
Basically Aiki techniques refer to techniques which combine kokyu (breath) principles and natural principles which exist around us. I would say that Aiki is physics, because it tries to apply natural phenomena in a fighting purpose. The aiki masters have clearly understood that our body is not a an isolated entity but it is integrated in a global environment. Using this fundamental principle Kokyo can exist and the aiki techniques can be born. Before to go ahead, lest talk about the jujutsu techniques. Basically the jujutsu techniques are the expression of the power of the human body. When a jujutsu techniques is executed, only the features of the power of the body (you muscle, you speed, you size, etc....) are involved, and used to perform a technique which in the case of the Daito Ryu, is represented by powerful atemi techniques, throwing techniques (Yama arashi is a famous one) and control techniques (very typical of the Daito). At this stage of the study of the daito, it is important to train your body, because a strong body is important in jujutsu techniques.
From this stage, the Daito Ryu student has learned all the jujutsu techniques only as a body movement, as the techniques are still rather big with a lot movements. The second stage is known has the Aikijujutsu techniques. In that stage less physical power is used in the techniques, the techniques are smaller, but they are still jujutsu in some way. Actually in this stage some fundamental principles of Aiki are applied in the beginning of the technique execution. Kuzushi (unbalance), Aiki age, Aiki sage are introduced, and they are used to unbalance the opponent in order to apply the jujutsu technique. The jujutsu technique will be a throwing technique, or a control technique, or whatever.
So at that stage, the student begins to use the kokyu as a driving force for his techniques, the power of the body is less used, and the techniques are faster, and smaller.
The last step is the Aiki stage where all the technique is aiki. What does it mean? Well all the principle of Aiki are applied (Kuzushi, kokyu, Metsuke, etc...) In practise the Aiki technique is based on the fact that kokyu energy (which comes from the Tanden) of the two bodies (or more) involved in a fight can be gathered in only one entity which can be used to unbalance the opponent. Be aware of the unbalance strategy because it is an important point of the Aiki. The human body has naturally a very good balance, and it is somehow difficult to unbalance a strong and powerful body. The unbalance technique of Aiki relies on the fact that it exist typical zones on the human body that are sensitive to the action of the kokyu. Applying aiki on those zones, make them weaker, and the unbalance of a body whatever his size and weight become possible. Aiki age and aiki sage are the two fundamental movements of the hands that allow this thing to happen.
So lets go more in details here.
Aiki techniques relies on this quite interesting and fascinating statement: The aiki techniques are the ability to unbalance an opponent in a interval of time that allows to control him and to finish the technique. Whatever the size or the power of this opponent, he will not be able to resist to this unbalance, and as he is unbalanced he can not do anything. It is an important point because during this interval of time, the aiki master can decide either of the life or the dead of the opponent. This moment is called the aiki situation.
The photo of Horikawa Kodo presented in this forum shows exactly the aiki situation
(this photo has been taken from a very rare video of Kodo sensei). This photo shows the moment when the opponents are unbalanced by an aiki techniques (no the two opponents are not preparing for a sankyo technique as "sorry" said Aikijones, i really laughed when i read this!!!, but sure its is difficult to understand the photo without seeing the all context of the scene), and actually the opponents will completely lose their balance in the rest of the scene. But what is amazing here is that they did it very slowly as they could not recover any balance at all. Kodo sensei was able to perform aiki techniques very fast or very slowly, showing in that sense that the time is not important, the aiki technique exists now (Ueshiba was also saying the same things).
So i explained the aiki techniques, and i hope that you see now that it is difficult to understand them. But don't think that they are
mysterious, no, they are physics.
Now lets return to the history of the aikido. Ueshiba sensei was a wonderful master of the aiki techniques. But and it is important, he did not teach them as he learned them from Takada sensei, and most of people could not understand the aiki principles. Gozo Shioda was sure his most brilliant student, and unfortunately any master of the Yoshinkan dojo today is able to perform the aiki techniques as he could. Actually most of the aiki techniques dojo are located in Hokkaido (Takeda spent major part of his life in Hokkaido). The Kodokai is only located there. Why the kodokai?
The Kodokai ryu was established by Horikawa Kodo in order to preserve the Daito Ryu tradition after the Takeda sensei death. Kodo sensei had an incredible aiki technique, as he was very small, he received mainly the teaching of aiki techniques. Actually Takada did not teach the same things for every student, and according to the size, the power of the student, Takada taught either the aiki techniques or the daito ryu jujutsu techniques. Hisa sensei and Takada's son have been taught the jujutsu techniques because of their powerful body.
Now the case of the aikikai. After the death of Ueshiba, The aikikai organization went o another direction. The aim was to teach to a lot of people, and to do so the techniques had to be simple. Moreover Ueshiba did not explain the Aiki principles, and so it was really unclear to define aiki and to explain it to people. For this reason, the aikikai made its own interpretation based on the kanjis (chinese charactesr used to write aiki) and came up with the idea of harmony of energy, love, etc (based as well on the religious and philosophical ideas of Ueshiba sensei). But the problem is that their interpretation is very different from the real aiki, because it does not have any practical application, any principles to rely on, it is just philosophy. They do very large techniques (in order to have beautiful movements), the uke attacks are very weak and not realistic. Unfortunately nothing can be learned from such practice because the technique simply does not exist......
You have to remember that aiki was and is a fighting technique, but of course (it is important), aiki is a wonderful way to understand the nature around us, how our body is integrated in this environment. Its is a wonderful way to understand the kokyu and how it works in the human body. And it is a wonderful way to be more calm, open to people, and self-confident. But it is not a philosophy, to understand it, is important to learn it as a fighting and budo technique. That's the key. I am sorry to say that, but in aikikai (for example) aiki is not taught, that's a different thing, that's not aiki. There is no several definitions of aiki, no way, there is one aiki, only one. There is one definition of aiki, and anything else which is not based on the principle that i defined above can not be called aiki. Its like to say there are several physics, that’s not true, right? There is one aiki as there is one physics.
And to finish i would like to say few words about why aiki exists. Aiki exists because there is always a limit in the jujutsu techniques. For example a strong opponent will be difficult to control with jujutsu technique (try to apply them against a 2 meters and 130 kilos guy), or simply our body does not stay young for ever, and there in one day when it is not possible to apply jujutsu technique any more. Or for example it is difficult to apply an arm-lock against someone very strong, or to throw him or to hit him effectively. So the aiki techniques are used as high level state where the power of the technique does not rely on mechanical movements amy more(arm-lock, throwing) but on kokyu. And believe me they are extremely effective, the kuzushi techniques are very strong, as well as the aiki atemi (and yes atemi exist in aiki techniques but the way to apply them differs from the jujutsu techniques), and the control techniques which are called the shimeru techniques are simple amazing.
To summarize, i would like to say that there is only ONE Aiki, its a based on a wonderful understanding of natural phenomena by old masters, and it is a great part of the Japan tradition which has made wonderful masters and people.
All the things written here are the history and explanations exposed by the kodokai masters. You believe it or not but this the thought of people involved in the Daito-ryu and aikido story."