Greetings from the Netherlands

[Lennert]

A good day to all of you (or maybe good evening, I couldn't tell since I'm on the other side of the world for the majority of this forum's users)!

Let me introduce myself in a proper way: my name is Lennert, I'm 21 years old and live in the small country of the Netherlands. At the moment I'm a student of philosophy at the Erasmus University of Rotterdam and I've started working on my thesis 'on heroism' and will dedicate a special part to our (post-)modern (action) heroes like Steven Seagal, Jean-Claude van Damme, Chuck Norris, Wesley Snipes, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone. I got this idea a few years ago when people confronted me daily with the fact that I watch, in their eyes, violent movies and accused me of being a xenophobe (which I'm not), aggressive (not more than most people) and being just stupid (no complaints). I'm a big movie lover (not only the action type, although my biggest interest lies in that area) and want to make some kind of 'action-apologetics', since I believe action movies aren't just about enjoying violence.

Apart from this I am bassplayer in the Dutch rockgroup Underscore in which I can express my love for music. The music is a little Pearl Jam/Live orientated, but my taste ranges from metal (heavy, power, prog/symphonic, thrash, speed) to folk, blues, classic rock and classical music. I also enjoy reading on the topics of religion, science, philosophy and concerning fiction I mostly read fantasy/science-fiction.

And now the reason why I'm here: Steven Seagal to me is the personification of justice in a postmodern age where the concept of 'justice' isn't particulary clear any more. (also I like his fighting, I'll be starting my own aikido lessons next week, but that's not the main point ) At the moment I rate Under Siege the highest of his movies, but there is a possibility that will change after tonight, I'll be watching Marked For Death! (that movie took me a while to get, it wasn't available in Holland for a long time and I hate downloading movies, I like having a normal collection). Apart from that there weren't a lot of movies I didn't like, but The Foreigner comes in mind as a very bad movie (I hated the camerawork and the slowmotion scenes).

Well, I guess that pretty much sums it up. If anybody has any questions I'll be more than happy to answer them!

 

[tigerfeet]

Hi Lennert!
Welcome to our forum. You will find lots if interesting (and possibly crazy) people here, all of whom will wholeheartedly agree with your endorsement of Seagal.
I am working on a PhD in philosophy at the University of Victoria, so your post particularly intrigued me, although I have not read much on the philosophy of heroics or heroism.
One question for you: How are you defining justice?

 

[Lennert]

Hello Tigerfeet!

To be honest with you, I haven't found much philosophy on heroism either. I can use Aristotle and Nietzsche for their writings on theatre and tragedy and I will also use Freud, Kierkegaard and some post-modern philosophy writings on discourses. My biggest inspiration however is Jos de Mul (my teacher philosophical anthropoly) and his book 'De domesticatie van het noodlot' (I'm not sure if it is released in the USA, it is released in Japan though. I believe you could translate it into 'The domestication of fate') about the concept of tragedies.

On the definition of justice: that's something I'm still working on, for finding the right definition is usually the hardest part of writing an essay (although I would say in Seagal's discourse justice takes place from a deontological point of view).

 

[Sue]

Hi Lennert and welcome to this site. I hope you enjoy meeting people on here and joining in this discussions.

Good luck with your degree and aikido lessons, I hope it all goes well for you!

Sue

 

[Anneliese]

Hi Lennert and welcome here!!

I am from Germany, was born and raised there and went to school and college there. Now I live in Kansas, USA.

Wish you good luck with everything you are trying to do!!

Ann

 

[tigerfeet]

Hello Tigerfeet!

To be honest with you, I haven't found much philosophy on heroism either. I can use Aristotle and Nietzsche for their writings on theatre and tragedy and I will also use Freud, Kierkegaard and some post-modern philosophy writings on discourses. My biggest inspiration however is Jos de Mul (my teacher philosophical anthropoly) and his book 'De domesticatie van het noodlot' (I'm not sure if it is released in the USA, it is released in Japan though. I believe you could translate it into 'The domestication of fate') about the concept of tragedies.

On the definition of justice: that's something I'm still working on, for finding the right definition is usually the hardest part of writing an essay (although I would say in Seagal's discourse justice takes place from a deontological point of view).

Hi Lennert
i agree with you about definitions. A whole chapter of my Master's thesis was on definitions of the sacred.
You will need to consider connotative meaning as well as literal meaning. his will vary from language to language. You may want to look at Edward Said's Orientalisms for some background there. Have you considered Plato's writings on justice? Also, Beccaria's "Crimes and Punishments" (1764) is a good source. And of course Locke, Nietzche, Kierkegaard as you mentioned. (personally I have a soft spot for Kierkegaard. Him and Leibniz).
i think you are entirely right about Seagal's approach to justice, at least in his movies. He may have a different view in real life.
Anyway, it is nice to have these sorts of posts! I hope others will join in.

Cheers

 

[Sue]

I would join in but it's over my head. Very interesting to read though.

 

[Lennert]

Hi Lennert
i agree with you about definitions. A whole chapter of my Master's thesis was on definitions of the sacred.
You will need to consider connotative meaning as well as literal meaning. his will vary from language to language. You may want to look at Edward Said's Orientalisms for some background there. Have you considered Plato's writings on justice? Also, Beccaria's "Crimes and Punishments" (1764) is a good source. And of course Locke, Nietzche, Kierkegaard as you mentioned. (personally I have a soft spot for Kierkegaard. Him and Leibniz).
i think you are entirely right about Seagal's approach to justice, at least in his movies. He may have a different view in real life.
Anyway, it is nice to have these sorts of posts! I hope others will join in.

Cheers

It's good to meet someone else who thinks Søren Aabye Kierkegaard is a great thinker, albeit a tragic one. I really hope his tortured spirit found the peace he couldn't find in life. Some of his quotes, like:
'The task must be made difficult, for only the difficult inspires the noble-hearted'
'The tyrant dies and his rule is over; the martyr dies and his rule begins.'
are really inspiring when I'm working on the concept of heroism. (although the last one is a little difficult to use in Seagal's discourse. I mean, the guy only died once in Executive Decision, and although it was kinda heroic, it didn't really made him an immortal idea. But then again, his is the discourse where the hero doesn't die, although his family might. He simply can't die until justice has prevailed and the destructive forces of evil are put in their place... with an even greater force of destruction. Nico wouldn't have become a hero if he died, in that movie it would probably make him a failure since he wouldn't have been able to pas judgement on those who deserved to be punished. No, the part of the dying hero who becomes immortal in action movies, should be seen from the perspective of, say, Bruce Willis in Armageddon (whether one likes the movie or not ).

Not that I'm bashing Seagal for not dying in his movies, I'm not bashing Jean-Claude van Damme and Chuck Norris for that either (although Chuck died to the hands of Bruce Lee, but that also didn't make him a hero in the way I mean).

Anyway, I thank you for your advice on the literary works, Edward Said and Beccaria sound really interesting, although I must admit I hadn't heard of them before (but I've just checked some information on them and must also admit I really want to read their works now!). I feel I'm having a good time on this forum already

 

[tigerfeet]

I wonder whether death is a necessary condition for heroism. Certainly, as you point out, for the deontological it is more of a necessity NOT to die, as once dead the hero can no longer exact the justice he seeks to mete out. Except in the case of martyrs, as your Kierkegaard quote shows. You could definitely make a case that martyrs are also using a highly deontological approach.
But, I think you will have to make a very clear distinction between heroism and martyrdom, or you might find the whole project becomes unmanageable. Still, you will have to address the issue.
There is a nagging thought in the back of my mind that the Greeks at least may have equated heroism with martyrdom. But I could be wrong. I might need to re-read Homer's Odyssey and the Iliad with that thought in mind.

 

[Lennert]

No, you are abolutely right on that one. Take for example Achilles, who was given the option to go to war and die young, but also receive immortal fame as a hero, or to stay home and die of old age, but to be forgotten in time (the problem I have with Achilles however, is the fact that he chose for immortality and fame, not because he had the duty to do so, but because he wanted to be immortal. But then again, he did take the deontological approach when avenging Patroclus). But could we call Hector a martyr for engaging Achilles in close combat, without standing a chance in the first place (since Achilles was the stronger man and he had the help of Pallas Athena)? I do think martyrdom is a choice of free will, but I'm not sure if Hector knew he was going to loose...

But take Leonidas of Sparta, who knew he was going to die, but he died knowing they provided Greece enough time to gather an army to defeat the Persians. Would you say he died a hero, a martyr or both?

But you are right, dying doesn't necessarily make someone a hero, although the concept of death is of great importance to the majority of the heroes. However, I wonder how the fans would react if Steven's character died in Ruslan, while trying to achieve something which is virtually impossible (even for Steven!)...

 

[cathleen_jones@yahoo.com]

Hi Lennert and welcome to our site! love and blessings, Cathleen