Why is he always treated bad by critics?

RichieMadano

Out For Justice Fan
Don't forget the old saying:

"Those who can, do, those that can't, criticise"

If these critics are so clever, why don't they make some better films themselves. The simple reason is they can't, so instead they disrespect someone elses work.
 

steve

New Member
Critics

That saying's exactly right Richie, film-makers and actors break their backs working hard to create films, while all critics do is sit in a room somewhere ripping their hard work to bits when they themselves have never done a day's work in their lives. Film-makers should be able to sue them for making their films look bad, though for some reason I've never heard of anyone take them on.
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
The filmmaker's job is to make films. The film critic's job is to tell the filmmaker what the results were. It's got nothing whatever to do with "if can't do, criticise." A filmmaker can be so invested in their project that they will not see its flaws. A film critic's job is to be completely outside of that investment and look at the project as a whole.

Writers have the same feelings about those who review their stories. They also have a deep seated hatred of editors. Why? Because editors are usually not writers themselves, and so the writers think, "they're not writers; they don't know how I've sweated over this masterpiece of prose; they know nothing because they've never written a word themselves." In fact, the worst editors are those who are writers themselves or worse, want to be writers. They are simply too invested in their own writing to be able to be objective about anyone else's.

A good editor knows what makes a good story, and he doesn't have to be a writer himself. All he has to know about is writing; what constitutes a good story, how that story is told, what he thinks his readers will enjoy. The editor's job is also to tell the writer what needs to be fixed in his story, whether it needs to be longer or shorter, whether the plot needs to be tweaked, if the language is inadequate or over the top.

That's why there are writers and there are editors. They are two different jobs, and one cannot exist without the other. (Example: there's a lot of self-published work on the internet at the moment. "Awful" only begins to describe the majority of it, and it goes downhill from there.)

Ditto with filmmakers and film critics. Why do you suppose there are no filmmakers as film critics? Not one, anywhere? Because they know they could NOT review a film, because they are too invested subjectively in the process. They cannot stand back and look at a film as a whole because they know the process, and for them the result has to be perfect; they cannot accept anything else. The film critic's job is to be objective. Sorry; the LEGITIMATE film critic's job is to be objective, and to assess the final result, without the baggage of all the sweat and tears that went into the making of it. It's not the making of a film that makes the film; it's the result. And if the result is not good, it's the film critic's job to say so without fear of repercussion.

An actor usually has no idea if their performance was a good one or not - until they read the review. When they are in the moment, they are just doing their job. They have no idea what the result is going to be like until they see the film. That's the job of the film critic - to tell the actor how he did, to tell the director if he did a good job with the actor, with the story he's supposed to be telling.

That's why I provided the examples above. One is a legitimate film critic who has been involved in studying films for a very long time. He knows his stuff, inside and out. The other example was someone who was simply assigned to write a review and doesn't know the first thing about filmmaking or the genre of action movies, and applied his own taste and preferences to the review instead of reviewing the film on its own merits.

The latter example is indicative of many of the reviews we see that engage in Steven-bashing, because the writer in question focused on his own prejudices. Ditto the majority of the reviews that I've come across on the internet. (In fact, some months ago I proposed to write an essay on the subject, and with this topic, it kind of sneaked up on me, so I guess this is the essay!) The focus of the review is not on the movie as a whole but on the soi-disant critic's prejudices. These particular reviews have more to do with the individual writing them wanting to share his knife-sharp wit with the world at large, and less to do with actually assessing the movie on its own merits.

In my book, they are not legitimate film critics, and so anything they write is spurious and to be ignored. These are the people that give legitimate film criticism a bad name. Tarring all film critics with their soiled brush is a mistake, one that's easily made, I grant you, because there's comfort in generalisation, and one isn't required, therefore, to engage in any critical thought of one's own. The difficulty, of course, is the effort to recognise that there is a distinction between wannabe fanboys writing their uninformed opinions, and a film critic whose job it is to be fair and objective, particularly when, after an objective review, the results run counter to an individual's worldview, sic: "Steven Seagal's movies are all perfect just because Steven is in them, and anybody reviewing any of his films that say otherwise is suffering from penis envy."
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
I still think they are envious to a point, and oh what a lot of reason to be envious, eh?
They sure don't have what he has...Talent, charisma, looks, brains...These are the reasons why he is where he is now, and they are where they are...If they were making valid points, then ok, maybe, but I don't think they are fair or objective...
And like you said sources are important, but in the end it's all an opinion, and If they can't get out there and do the work as hard as Steven does, and produce a better result then Steven can, then I don't see how they can even say anything, period...
 

Serena

Administrator
I agree, Lotus--bottom line, it's all just a matter of personal opinion. And there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion.

I'm curious--have any of you ever seen or not seen a movie based on a critic's opinion?

Me--never; but in all honesty, I almost never even read them any more.
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Not ever Serena, in fact, if it is touted as a great film by the media I get a bit suspicious...
It usually turns out to be a huge dissapointment in those cases...
And critics, well I respect them as much as I respect reporters, and I loathe reporters, I think they are a bunch of nosy roseys...
I'd much rather ask a friend or the average person their opinion about a film, than rely on a critic or the media...
At least if it was a fun, entertaining movie, they will let me know, and they will leave all the critical garbage outside the door...
Most people just want entertainment, most people don't feel the need to pick apart
everything about a film...
I guess the ones that do are well suited for the job of critic, but geez, do they honestly ever really enjoy a movie?
How can they when they are so busy paying attention to every little detail?
I can't see how they can enjoy that at all, but then that's just me...
 

Serena

Administrator
Lotussan said:
.....Most people just want entertainment, most people don't feel the need to pick apart
everything about a film...
I guess the ones that do are well suited for the job of critic, but geez, do they honestly ever really enjoy a movie?
How can they when they are so busy paying attention to every little detail?
I can't see how they can enjoy that at all, but then that's just me...

That's pretty much the way I feel, Lotus. I've often wondered if they can enjoy the movie as a whole, when it seems as if they're analyzing every little detail, every nuance. But then, as I indicated in a different post a while ago, there is no right or wrong way to watch a movie, either. Me, I watch a movie for pure escapism, especially Steven and action movies in general.
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
If there's a film critic whose opinion I trust, then I will go and see the film based on the critic's review. Sometimes I'll go see a film and read the review afterward, just to see if the critic got it right or not.

There are no film critics in Toronto's papers at the moment whose opinion I trust, but there is a film critic of my acquaintance (who does film crit for CBC radio, or rather, used to until they cut the budget) whose opinion I do trust, and I'll go see a film based on his review without fail.

Ron Base used to do film crit for the Star about 20 years ago. I used to call him "Baseless" because his reviews were so far out in left field, and so full of his clever, cutting wit (which was only in evidence if he had something derogatory to say), they made almost no connection to the movie in question. On the other hand, at the same time period, George Anthony used to review films for the Toronto Sun, and his reviews, I felt, at least had some connection to the film, and I'd see a film because of his review; for Ron Base, I'd see a film in spite of his review.

Certainly, there is a lot of subjectivity in the review process; but I say this over and over again, it's how well the reviewer does objectively that determines - at least for me - how good a reviewer he is.

I'm just saying don't confuse the professional reviewer with the amateur, the dilettante, the wannabe fanboy or the one-off assignment writer. There's a world of difference in approach and in the results.
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
TDWoj said:
Certainly, there is a lot of subjectivity in the review process; but I say this over and over again, it's how well the reviewer does objectively that determines - at least for me - how good a reviewer he is.

I'm just saying don't confuse the professional reviewer with the amateur, the dilettante, the wannabe fanboy or the one-off assignment writer. There's a world of difference in approach and in the results.

Points noted and taken, TD...And a very goods point they are...I guess I need to work on my objectivity a lot, but as Serena said they miss the boat when it comes to escapism, excitement, and entertainment, and for me, that is what Steven's movies are all about...I enjoy him more than anyone out there, and I always will...:)
 

Serena

Administrator
TDWoj said:
I'm just saying don't confuse the professional reviewer with the amateur, the dilettante, the wannabe fanboy or the one-off assignment writer. There's a world of difference in approach and in the results.

Well, TD. You're still the best reviewer I know--even though I almost always disagree with you about Steven's movies. ;) :D
 

Disciple

come get some
Escapism is the main appeal for me, but I have to say I take SS's messages very seriously also. He's not only the baddest :gun: action hero there ever was, he's also the most socially conscious. Even though he basically got laughed at by many in Hollywood because of some of the themes of his movies (especially ODG), that doesn't mean his points have any less value. And he proved that he really cares about these issues because he kept bringing them up, even when the box office said that people weren't interested in that kind of message in their action movies.

But yes, first and foremost it's escapism. And damn fine escapism. Good guys win, bad guys lose. Sensei saving the day and sticking up for the little guy. With his own brand of brutality. :D Gotta love it.
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Well, I certainly I love what he does, he is everything....I'm just speechless...But damn, what a man...
 

Serena

Administrator
Excellent point about the sociologic and ecologic messages in his movies. That is really the icing on the cake. And you indeed gotta love it! :D I know I do.

Hmmmm.....Steven.....icing on cake.....okay, Lotus--you take it from here. ;) :D
 

suziwong

Administrator
Staff member
Thank you very much TD. Wonderful job !!! We refreshed our memories.
we have to think what the bad critics expect from Steven. He is an action movie star and he is very good action movie star. Also he is not expecting any oscars from anybody and we are also not expecting any oscars from him. We enjoy watching him.
By the those people keep on doing these kind of things !! I can not understand !!
in onenensss
 

steve

New Member
Critics

Well to be honest I never really pay attention to them anymore especially as they always seem to rip to pieces the films I like and praise the ones that are just boring tripe. It just gets to me how they can sit and write all day criticising someone elses creativity, it's like they don't have the right or something and that's what makes me not like critics more than anything. Life's just too short to be nitpicking every little detail like they do. And their treatment of The Master is more unforgivable than anything else, what gives them the right to criticise someone they don't even know?
 

tora

Funmaker
steve said:
Well to be honest I never really pay attention to them anymore especially as they always seem to rip to pieces the films I like and praise the ones that are just boring tripe. It just gets to me how they can sit and write all day criticising someone elses creativity, it's like they don't have the right or something and that's what makes me not like critics more than anything. Life's just too short to be nitpicking every little detail like they do. And their treatment of The Master is more unforgivable than anything else, what gives them the right to criticise someone they don't even know?

Steve,gimme 5ive!That's what I've been talking about...I mean babbling.:)
 

tora

Funmaker
Disciple said:
Escapism is the main appeal for me, but I have to say I take SS's messages very seriously also. He's not only the baddest :gun: action hero there ever was, he's also the most socially conscious. Even though he basically got laughed at by many in Hollywood because of some of the themes of his movies (especially ODG), that doesn't mean his points have any less value. And he proved that he really cares about these issues because he kept bringing them up, even when the box office said that people weren't interested in that kind of message in their action movies.

But yes, first and foremost it's escapism. And damn fine escapism. Good guys win, bad guys lose. Sensei saving the day and sticking up for the little guy. With his own brand of brutality. :D Gotta love it.

I'm with you,Disciple,into that damn fine escapism...:D
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Serena said:
Hmmmm.....Steven.....icing on cake.....okay, Lotus--you take it from here. ;) :D

Steven and icing, mmmmm, sounds ultra yummy...hmmm...I think I'd like to lick it off those long, gorgeous male fingers, for starters...;)
 

yudansha

TheGreatOne
it's too bad, and it's sad

I would not go as far as calling Steven Seagal the greatest actor, nor even compare him to the gift that's posessed Tom Cruise. There is a pattern to all criticism. If the work is not dramatic enough, most likely, it will not get a good review. For example, the movie "Narc" got a good review by many; probably because of Tom Cruise's very positive opinion of it. I personally could not watch the movie, but wanted to get my money's worth for the rent by at least watching the movie until the end (forget the extra features, I just returned it ... more like threw it towards the slot of the return bin). Steven Seagal's work has very little drama. The only thing that made him a success in Hollywood was his talent for the art of aikido. Seagal was able to showcase his abilities without having any body doubles (which by the way Tom Cruise hates, and always strongly opposes having one; preferring to do all of his work and stunts for his work by himself just like Jackie Chan), with excellent choreography and a great screen presence. As much as you might like the look of Seagal with his extra ... pounds, that doesn't attract the majority of the moviegoers nor the public. Furthermore, Seagal is very religious and a great environmentalist, but people don't like going to see a thriller and then watch a lecture on their faults of harming the mother nature. As great of a person Seagal is, his acting is in a different league with respect to powerful figures like Bruce Willis, Tom Cruise, Sylvester Stallone, or Schwarzenegger. Not today at least. Unfortunately the past is behind us, and you cannot turn the clock back to the times when Steven Seagal paralleled Chuck Norris, Stallone, Schwarzenegger, and all other action stars of the day.
 
Top