What SEAGAL should do in order to get back on top
- Thread starter Disciple
- Start date
ORANGATUANG
Wildfire
Disciple said:Addendum- no soft porn, and no boring baiting trolls. Thanks.
Two-Words "SOD-OFF".............
ORANGATUANG
Wildfire
No Comment.!!!
Disciple
come get some
Don't worry Tiggy, you didn't upset anyone.
Frankly the only thing that upsets me is that only a handful of people at this site can see that the quality of Sensei's films is suffering. What people fail to realize is that whether or not he reads the website is not what's important, his MOVIES are.
Frankly the only thing that upsets me is that only a handful of people at this site can see that the quality of Sensei's films is suffering. What people fail to realize is that whether or not he reads the website is not what's important, his MOVIES are.
Lotussan
I Belong To Steven
Too much negativity isn't going to help anything, especially after the film has been made, maybe you think I am one of these people disciple, however, my way is to be supportive to the people I care about...I try not to criticize, because I sure as hell couldn't do a better job...If I could, or if I knew the first thing about making a film maybe I could be critical of someone elses work...I'm not perfect, and I just want to enjoy sensei's movies, and in fact
I do...I don't pick them apart, and I don't think most women think that way, men are more cerebral than women, so, please try to keep that in mind...Maybe I do enjoy them so much because I start out with some positivity in my heart from the get go...Maybe you should try that sometime....I love and support Steven unconditionally, and all his efforts, even if everything isn't 100% perfect...I just can't see that as being so wrong...If you do, oh well...If you think I am kissing his ass then go ahead and think it, what I think or do, or say, shouldn't be your concern, if you think I am biased then don't read my posts, just skip over them from now on...Oh, and in the unlikely event that I wasn't one of the ones you were referring to, then I apologize, so just ignore me...
I do...I don't pick them apart, and I don't think most women think that way, men are more cerebral than women, so, please try to keep that in mind...Maybe I do enjoy them so much because I start out with some positivity in my heart from the get go...Maybe you should try that sometime....I love and support Steven unconditionally, and all his efforts, even if everything isn't 100% perfect...I just can't see that as being so wrong...If you do, oh well...If you think I am kissing his ass then go ahead and think it, what I think or do, or say, shouldn't be your concern, if you think I am biased then don't read my posts, just skip over them from now on...Oh, and in the unlikely event that I wasn't one of the ones you were referring to, then I apologize, so just ignore me...
There's a difference between negativity and constructive criticism. Heck, the writers I hang out with still look for criticism of their work before they submit to publishers because they know that even though they've had work published, there's still room to improve. And one doesn't have to be in the film business to know what works and what doesn't in a film.
Reviews like the one recently posted by jhogan from the rottentomatoes site is an object lesson in how not to write a film review. There, the reviewer was not so much reviewing the film as airing his distaste for Steven Seagal (while declaring himself a fan), and enjoying himself doing so.
On the other hand, saying that every film Steven makes is great, is perfection itself, and so on, isn't helpful either, especially when the evidence points to the contrary. Anyone serious about their craft is always open to hearing criticism about their work. It's what they do with the criticism that counts. Some will ignore it altogether, feeling that they don't need to listen because they think they know it all; others will consider what was said, and though they may disagree, they will still acknowledge that there might be room for improvement.
A bad script is a bad script, and no director given a bad script can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Some directors, on the other hand, can take a really good script and screw it up spectacularly. I also often wonder, when I see a movie, how the actors fail to recognize what they are doing when they are saying truly awful bits of dialogue. (Case in point: the after-dinner scene in Attack of the Clones. Oh, ye gods, it was awful: I'm suffering flashbacks of horror and nausea just thinking about it. Bleh.)
Someone reviewing a film - or anything else for that matter (sez TD who reviews short fiction) - who backs up their comments with what is actually going on on the screen and does not allow personal prejudices to colour their review is a valuable resource to all concerned in making the film. That person does not have to have fifteen years of experience in the film industry in order to review a film; all they need is the capacity to understand what makes a good film and what doesn't.
It's actually not very helpful to Steven to say that every film he makes is A-1 perfection, nothing can be improved, he should go on doing exactly the same thing. If he is at all interested in improving his craft, he will listen to those who review his films objectively. The ones who rant on about his weight, his hair and his clothes are the ones to be ignored. The trick is to find the good reviewers who will review the *film* and not allow any personal prejudice against Steven to taint their reviews.
If, however, Steven is not interested in reading objective critical reviews of his films, if he's convinced he's doing everything right and he doesn't need to improve, then we will continue to get sub-standard results. I hate to think of him making so many films in such a short time, with low budgets and second-string directors, bad scripts and no-name actors is because he thinks he's doing a good job and doesn't need to step back and take stock of what he's been giving us. The proof is in the pudding; he does have a loyal audience, people will buy and rent his films regardless of their quality, and as long as he is making some money from these movies, he will not think there is any need to improve. However, if his films will continue to deteriorate in quality, even his loyal fan base will begin to fall off; and then what?
I do give him credit for continuing to work. As has been said elsewhere, how many martial arts/action heroes are still working at his age, in the genre? And yet, 52 or 53 is not so old, except as far as Hollywood is concerned. I think it's not so much his age that is the problem as it is the genre itself. It's changed over the past 10 years, and Steven's style simply does not accommodate itself to the expectations of today's audiences. So either he has to change his style to fit in with the new rules, or he has to find a way to use his existing style in a different kind of story. I'd opt for the latter.
Criticism, when offered objectively, isn't in and of itself a bad thing; nor is criticism necessarily negative. However, constant reiterations of "yes, it's wonderful" and praise where none is due are rarely a good thing because it will encourage the receiver to become lazy, blind and deaf to improving their craft, and careless with their work.
-TD, talking tough love
Reviews like the one recently posted by jhogan from the rottentomatoes site is an object lesson in how not to write a film review. There, the reviewer was not so much reviewing the film as airing his distaste for Steven Seagal (while declaring himself a fan), and enjoying himself doing so.
On the other hand, saying that every film Steven makes is great, is perfection itself, and so on, isn't helpful either, especially when the evidence points to the contrary. Anyone serious about their craft is always open to hearing criticism about their work. It's what they do with the criticism that counts. Some will ignore it altogether, feeling that they don't need to listen because they think they know it all; others will consider what was said, and though they may disagree, they will still acknowledge that there might be room for improvement.
A bad script is a bad script, and no director given a bad script can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Some directors, on the other hand, can take a really good script and screw it up spectacularly. I also often wonder, when I see a movie, how the actors fail to recognize what they are doing when they are saying truly awful bits of dialogue. (Case in point: the after-dinner scene in Attack of the Clones. Oh, ye gods, it was awful: I'm suffering flashbacks of horror and nausea just thinking about it. Bleh.)
Someone reviewing a film - or anything else for that matter (sez TD who reviews short fiction) - who backs up their comments with what is actually going on on the screen and does not allow personal prejudices to colour their review is a valuable resource to all concerned in making the film. That person does not have to have fifteen years of experience in the film industry in order to review a film; all they need is the capacity to understand what makes a good film and what doesn't.
It's actually not very helpful to Steven to say that every film he makes is A-1 perfection, nothing can be improved, he should go on doing exactly the same thing. If he is at all interested in improving his craft, he will listen to those who review his films objectively. The ones who rant on about his weight, his hair and his clothes are the ones to be ignored. The trick is to find the good reviewers who will review the *film* and not allow any personal prejudice against Steven to taint their reviews.
If, however, Steven is not interested in reading objective critical reviews of his films, if he's convinced he's doing everything right and he doesn't need to improve, then we will continue to get sub-standard results. I hate to think of him making so many films in such a short time, with low budgets and second-string directors, bad scripts and no-name actors is because he thinks he's doing a good job and doesn't need to step back and take stock of what he's been giving us. The proof is in the pudding; he does have a loyal audience, people will buy and rent his films regardless of their quality, and as long as he is making some money from these movies, he will not think there is any need to improve. However, if his films will continue to deteriorate in quality, even his loyal fan base will begin to fall off; and then what?
I do give him credit for continuing to work. As has been said elsewhere, how many martial arts/action heroes are still working at his age, in the genre? And yet, 52 or 53 is not so old, except as far as Hollywood is concerned. I think it's not so much his age that is the problem as it is the genre itself. It's changed over the past 10 years, and Steven's style simply does not accommodate itself to the expectations of today's audiences. So either he has to change his style to fit in with the new rules, or he has to find a way to use his existing style in a different kind of story. I'd opt for the latter.
Criticism, when offered objectively, isn't in and of itself a bad thing; nor is criticism necessarily negative. However, constant reiterations of "yes, it's wonderful" and praise where none is due are rarely a good thing because it will encourage the receiver to become lazy, blind and deaf to improving their craft, and careless with their work.
-TD, talking tough love
Nassau Mike
Member
Not bad TD. I still cant figure out why you did'nt like The Last Samurai though. I have to agree with most of your points though relating to Seagal. Although I think that Belly of the Beast was an improvement over his last 2 films and I think that had a lot to do with the direction and the fact that Seagal had a lot of input in the writing..I really dont expect to see Seagal do anymore movies like he did in the old days and thats partly because he has changed since then and he no longer can make the quality action film nowadays because of the budgets he now gets and also these awful directors(Oblowitz and this Annakin guy for Khan).
That being said I still look forward to all of Seagal's upcoming films and hope for the best. I look forward to "Into the Sun" because he wrote that as well. I also buy his films because I want to support whatever he does in hopes that it will improve. I think if his fan base drops off and dont buy his new films his days in hollywood will be numbered because the budgets and scripts will decrease if his sales do.
I think his days of getting another theatrically released film though may be waning and now it even looks like Into the Sun will be going to video.
Is there a director that has been named yet to do "Into the Sun"? Whats the holdup there and its listed as filming in imdb.
That being said I still look forward to all of Seagal's upcoming films and hope for the best. I look forward to "Into the Sun" because he wrote that as well. I also buy his films because I want to support whatever he does in hopes that it will improve. I think if his fan base drops off and dont buy his new films his days in hollywood will be numbered because the budgets and scripts will decrease if his sales do.
I think his days of getting another theatrically released film though may be waning and now it even looks like Into the Sun will be going to video.
Is there a director that has been named yet to do "Into the Sun"? Whats the holdup there and its listed as filming in imdb.
I didn't completely dislike The Last Samurai - there were parts of it that were very good indeed. What I objected to was the bog-standard theme in these kinds of American-made movies that it takes an American to teach another culture how to be that culture, or that only an American can save the day. Have you ever heard of the expression, "teach your grandmother to suck eggs"? That's what I kept thinking throughout the film, as well as thinking that this movie could just as easily be called "Dances with Samurai" since it was pretty much scene for scene identical to Dances with Wolves (which was a far superior film to The Last Samurai, in my humble opinion, because Kevin Costner was believable in his role, while Tom Cruise was not).
No, I don't see Steven coming back to the big screen unless the bean-counters in Hollywood suddenly, collectively, pack up and leave. The argument's been made that it's cheaper to make movies, especially indie films, outside of the US; but that doesn't stop "name" actors from appearing in them, or name directors from directing them. Half Past Dead was the last time we saw anyone remotely recognisable (at least, on this side of the pond) in a Steven Seagal film, and that film went over like a lead balloon.
There's a distinct possibility that there is no one of "name" who wants to work with him, either director or actor. It may be that because he's made enough movies that qualify, at best, as mediocre, he is therefore associated with sub-standard movies as his new trademark; and no one wants to be in a mediocre film (unless they're that desperate for money). Certainly no one of "name" is going to work for scale in a production that includes Steven Seagal, except in the unlikely event he makes an art film (which I think is what Oblowitz was going for in OFAK, and failed utterly). Someone suggested that Tarantino should make a film with Steven. Honestly, can you see Tarantino and Steven even in the same room together? It beggars the imagination.
I think the only way we are going to see Steven back on the big screen is if he sucks it up, packs his ego into a trunk and locks it away, and really gets down to working and playing well with others. Until that happens, though, all we are going to get is what we've been getting, and with that, we shall have to be content.
-TD, stalking the mailman until he delivers BOTB
No, I don't see Steven coming back to the big screen unless the bean-counters in Hollywood suddenly, collectively, pack up and leave. The argument's been made that it's cheaper to make movies, especially indie films, outside of the US; but that doesn't stop "name" actors from appearing in them, or name directors from directing them. Half Past Dead was the last time we saw anyone remotely recognisable (at least, on this side of the pond) in a Steven Seagal film, and that film went over like a lead balloon.
There's a distinct possibility that there is no one of "name" who wants to work with him, either director or actor. It may be that because he's made enough movies that qualify, at best, as mediocre, he is therefore associated with sub-standard movies as his new trademark; and no one wants to be in a mediocre film (unless they're that desperate for money). Certainly no one of "name" is going to work for scale in a production that includes Steven Seagal, except in the unlikely event he makes an art film (which I think is what Oblowitz was going for in OFAK, and failed utterly). Someone suggested that Tarantino should make a film with Steven. Honestly, can you see Tarantino and Steven even in the same room together? It beggars the imagination.
I think the only way we are going to see Steven back on the big screen is if he sucks it up, packs his ego into a trunk and locks it away, and really gets down to working and playing well with others. Until that happens, though, all we are going to get is what we've been getting, and with that, we shall have to be content.
-TD, stalking the mailman until he delivers BOTB
Lotussan
I Belong To Steven
Oh, come on...
Steven is such a smart guy, he doesn't need a girl like me to tell him what to
do as far as making movies is concerned, that is his bag...
I guess I am just not a good reviewer, that's all...
Not objective, and too biased...
Now, if I was his wife, I might be more vocal you never know...hehehe...
Oops, there I go again, straying off the topic!
I see your points though, I just find it extremely hard to
ever be critical of him, I guess...
Maybe you all thinks that is a big flaw, oh well...
Plenty of others here to take on that job...
I am here to love and support the big guy, what can I say...
I adore him, and I think he's brilliant, amazing, and soooo talented...
Steven is such a smart guy, he doesn't need a girl like me to tell him what to
do as far as making movies is concerned, that is his bag...
I guess I am just not a good reviewer, that's all...
Not objective, and too biased...
Now, if I was his wife, I might be more vocal you never know...hehehe...
Oops, there I go again, straying off the topic!
I see your points though, I just find it extremely hard to
ever be critical of him, I guess...
Maybe you all thinks that is a big flaw, oh well...
Plenty of others here to take on that job...
I am here to love and support the big guy, what can I say...
I adore him, and I think he's brilliant, amazing, and soooo talented...
Mama San
Administrator
Lotussan said:
If it is a flaw, Lotussan, then there are a lot more than a few here
that have that same flaw, including yours truly!!
Just in case people have forgotten, the reason this site was created
was to honor, respect, support and love the big guy!
I will continue to do that right along with you!!
God bless,
Mama san
Nassau Mike
Member
There is no one that supports Seagal more than I do..I have all of his films on dvd and most on vhs and most all of his posters from his films and even foreign posters and just about every martial arts and entertainment magazine that had him on the cover from all over the world..Believe me, no one has supported Seagal more than I do. He is my favourite movie star and by far the best martial arts action star of all time in my opinion..
I'll always support everything that he does but I want him to get the best offer that he can and the best directors that he can(although like TD says: not many are looking to work with Seagal or in Seagal films anymore because the interest is no longer there at this point in his career).
To TD: I have never seen Dances With Wolves TD because it looked too long and boring for my taste. If you thought it was better than The Last Samurai then I have got to see it..Although I must admit that I'm not a huge fan of Costner..To me, his best films were J.F.K, Revenge, The Untouchables, Thirteen Days and his latest; Open Range.
I'll always support everything that he does but I want him to get the best offer that he can and the best directors that he can(although like TD says: not many are looking to work with Seagal or in Seagal films anymore because the interest is no longer there at this point in his career).
To TD: I have never seen Dances With Wolves TD because it looked too long and boring for my taste. If you thought it was better than The Last Samurai then I have got to see it..Although I must admit that I'm not a huge fan of Costner..To me, his best films were J.F.K, Revenge, The Untouchables, Thirteen Days and his latest; Open Range.
Yikes! I guess I been told...
-TD slinks away, never to be seen again... then changes her mind and slinks back....
There are different kinds of support. I'm afraid I can't offer the unconditional, "I'll ignore it if it's bad" starry-eyed, rosy-coloured glasses, "Steven can do no wrong" kind of support. It ain't in me to go against my nature, which is to be honest and forthright, even when in the throes of star attraction. Maybe it's because I'm always striving to do better, that I do not see anything good about resting on one's laurels. I believe that there is no such thing as reaching "the top", because there is no "top", except for the one that a person creates. And what that is, is placing limits on oneself.
I'm sorry, Mama San; I respect you and love you dearly; however, I am getting the distinct impression that this board is now only for those people who offer unequivocal praise of all things that are Steven, and that critical debate about Steven's films is something that is no longer welcome here (I'm not talking about the "Steven is a hack" type of commentary, which I, too, find unacceptable. I'm talking about honest critical review of both the pros and the cons of his work.). If that is the case, please tell me, and I will depart; with sincere regret, since I do enjoy exchanging dialogue with everyone here.
I certainly do not want to linger where I am not welcome.
-TD, hoping she doesn't have to go because she's got all of Steven's films on DVD as well as the PBT tape, and wants to have somewhere reasonably civilised to go to talk about her favourite subject
-TD slinks away, never to be seen again... then changes her mind and slinks back....
There are different kinds of support. I'm afraid I can't offer the unconditional, "I'll ignore it if it's bad" starry-eyed, rosy-coloured glasses, "Steven can do no wrong" kind of support. It ain't in me to go against my nature, which is to be honest and forthright, even when in the throes of star attraction. Maybe it's because I'm always striving to do better, that I do not see anything good about resting on one's laurels. I believe that there is no such thing as reaching "the top", because there is no "top", except for the one that a person creates. And what that is, is placing limits on oneself.
I'm sorry, Mama San; I respect you and love you dearly; however, I am getting the distinct impression that this board is now only for those people who offer unequivocal praise of all things that are Steven, and that critical debate about Steven's films is something that is no longer welcome here (I'm not talking about the "Steven is a hack" type of commentary, which I, too, find unacceptable. I'm talking about honest critical review of both the pros and the cons of his work.). If that is the case, please tell me, and I will depart; with sincere regret, since I do enjoy exchanging dialogue with everyone here.
I certainly do not want to linger where I am not welcome.
-TD, hoping she doesn't have to go because she's got all of Steven's films on DVD as well as the PBT tape, and wants to have somewhere reasonably civilised to go to talk about her favourite subject
I am sorry friends, may be I didn't understand correctly but why are we argueing ?
All of us here like Steven Seagal. He is having alot of negative comments from all around so we have to back Steven up!!
I love him and I respect him !! Forever !!!!
I love this special, amazing, extraordinary big guy !!!
I love you Steven !!
Truly
All of us here like Steven Seagal. He is having alot of negative comments from all around so we have to back Steven up!!
I love him and I respect him !! Forever !!!!
I love this special, amazing, extraordinary big guy !!!
I love you Steven !!
Truly
Nassau Mike
Member
TD, I dont think that anyone wants you to leave this forum. I find most of your posts fair and balanced and even though I dont always agree with everything that you say or critique I respect your opinion.
I hope you did'nt take any offense to something that i said because I thought that i was mostly agreeing with your opinions.
I think that most of the members here has some input to give and besides, we dont want to just come into every topic and see "how much we love Seagal" posts. We need a varied group to break the monotony from time to time..
You keep your butt right here TD!
I hope you did'nt take any offense to something that i said because I thought that i was mostly agreeing with your opinions.
I think that most of the members here has some input to give and besides, we dont want to just come into every topic and see "how much we love Seagal" posts. We need a varied group to break the monotony from time to time..
You keep your butt right here TD!
suziwong said:
I'm sorry, too, Suzi. But now I'm afraid if I finally get BOTB and want to post my review, I'm going to get jumped on again and sliced and diced if I don't say that it's perfect.
I'm a fan too, despite the fact that some think that I'm not. I love talking about Steven's movies, and what he does, as much as anyone else here. But I've been accused of not being a fan almost every time I offer an opinion that takes a different direction than that of "he's perfect, love, kiss, hugs [soft porn] gush, love." I'm not a gushy person. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy Steven's films, or get girlishly silly when I see him on screen. I just keep stuff like that to myself, where it belongs (for me).
Like I said before, my kind of support for Steven is different than others', but it's still support. And I want to stay. But I no longer feel that I'm welcome here, because so many people have insisted that this board is only for people who love and support Steven unconditionally and that any criticism of Steven is not wanted, even if it is constructive, and if anybody criticises Steven, even constructively, well, they can just get lost.
I'm not pointing any fingers at any one particular person; it just seems to me to be the general tone of late, possibly brought on by the sudden influx of rat-boys and faux fans. I know I can occasionally get heated on a subject, but I always try to balance what I say, and if I do go too far, then I will correct myself or retract what I've said, edit or delete or self-censor, as required.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive on the subject. I'm going to stick around for a while longer and see what happens. I love everybody here; I like to think I've made many friends here. But it is very hard, sometimes, to remember that when there is so much pressure to confine myself to saying things that fall within a very narrow definition of "support". I can't be anything less than honest. And yes, I know too well the expression, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." How does wanting someone to look at how they might do better fall into the category of "not nice" or negativity? How does saying that something could have been done better not be considered as offered in love and respect?
That's the message that I'm getting.
-TD, sad and not sure of what to do next
Nassau Mike said:
Thanks, Mike. I guess I'm just feeling a bit down lately, and the target that's painted on my forehead is starting to burn past my skin and into the flesh.
I guess I'm not that tough after all! Who'd have thought it - old TD is just a big ol' marshmallow! Put her too close to the fire and she melts! -TD, dodging embers
ORANGATUANG
Wildfire
Me..Iam with Steven all the way through thick and thin..Heather..
Lotussan
I Belong To Steven
TD, I don't want you to go either, I just think that for all my starry eyedness, you could be a little more thoughtful before you call Steven immoral and a coward, because the fact is that you don't know if he is or not...
Now personally, I think that is a judgement call, based upon things he's done...
I am not saying I believe he is, in fact I don't...
But we don't know all the circumstances involved, either...
Even if I did, I would try not make judgements like that because we all make mistakes...
I do apologize for making you feel bad if I did, I guess I just need to accept the fact that not everyone is going to feel the same way that I do...
And you are totally right, there are many different kinds of support...
I think the most important thing for us to remember is the Steven is a human man, just like any other man, and being human means that he can get his feelings hurt by negative comments like anyone else...
Now maybe he doesn't even read this stuff, so maybe I am wrong, and he doesn't even give a damn about what we say...
Maybe I go too far with my expressions of love in the eyes of some, but this is me...
I can't help the way I feel...
So TD, I am not sorry for thinking Steven is special, I am sorry if I made you feel bad...
Please don't go anywhere, we are all fans, and this is where we belong...
Besides, who would Serena and I chat with in that lonely old chatroom if you left?
Now personally, I think that is a judgement call, based upon things he's done...
I am not saying I believe he is, in fact I don't...
But we don't know all the circumstances involved, either...
Even if I did, I would try not make judgements like that because we all make mistakes...
I do apologize for making you feel bad if I did, I guess I just need to accept the fact that not everyone is going to feel the same way that I do...
And you are totally right, there are many different kinds of support...
I think the most important thing for us to remember is the Steven is a human man, just like any other man, and being human means that he can get his feelings hurt by negative comments like anyone else...
Now maybe he doesn't even read this stuff, so maybe I am wrong, and he doesn't even give a damn about what we say...
Maybe I go too far with my expressions of love in the eyes of some, but this is me...
I can't help the way I feel...
So TD, I am not sorry for thinking Steven is special, I am sorry if I made you feel bad...
Please don't go anywhere, we are all fans, and this is where we belong...
Besides, who would Serena and I chat with in that lonely old chatroom if you left?