Compare Aikido steven Seagal techniques and daito-ryu techniques

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
TDWoj said:
Okay, then, I've got a question. If you are working with a partner - uke - to perform aikido, what use is it as a defensive martial art? Since, I'm thinking, out on the street if a bad guy is trying to harm me, he sure as heck isn't going to be my "partner" and just let me throw him out of the way.
When you train aikido you are always working with a partner to improve both you and your partner's technique, to the point that you never have to worry about attacks again ;)

I've watched PBT several times, and I noticed something when the students did the 3-man randori. Every time the student who was being attacked let himself get grabbed, so that it was impossible for him/her to wriggle out of the clutch. It was interesting also to see that the "attacking" students all attacked at the same time. When Steven did it, the attacking students were nice enough to attack one at a time, so he was never caught in a clutch.

(Mind you, it was interesting to watch him because he did always have his eye on the next attacker after despatching the first, but still. They never all attacked him three on one at the same time - it was always consecutive, but with the students, the attack always came at once.)
Everytime I watched it Steven is allways initially attacked by them all at the same time. You see, if you're doing it right you are able to treat many as one and one as many. After the first evasion one always position himself and his partners in a way so that it looks like they are coming one after the other. Seagal are an expert at this. The students doing the test however didn't do a too good of job doing this. That's why it appear the partners are all swarming over him/her with the inevidable result of collaps.

/J
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks, Aikilove! I'll have to watch the tape again and pay closer attention to when Steven is demonstrating the 3-man randori. I could tell the students didn't have good technique because they never managed to make the "three" into "one" as you mentioned (resulting in Steven's pissy response about the spot on the wall).*

On a slightly different note, just before Christmas on History Television (Canada's version of the History Channel) they ran a series on martial arts, among which was Aikido. I found it interesting that they managed to successfully avoid making any mention at all of Steven Seagal, either as a contributor to the art or as anything else perhaps less complimentary. They said that the "head" of Aikido in the US is a sensei in New York (whose name escapes me for the moment) and that his is the ONLY place that teaches the true Aikido. What do you know about this?

*Footnote: I do not think if I were a student of Aikido that I'd really enjoy being taught by Steven. He seems to like the slice-and-dice-the-student method of getting his ideas across.
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, he is completly awesome in PBT, and from what I saw, his randori is unmatched, it makes no sense that a student could take him down, because after all, he's the teacher...
I bet he could knock down six men at once...
What he does is so effortless, he knows where to get them...
He's precise, he's super fast, and he's so graceful...
No one can seem to even grab him from what I saw...
It's ridiculous to even insinuate that he would need to stage anything at all for
that documentary, it was obviously all very spontaneous, and full of speed filled action...
He's simply the best...
So charasmatic, so skilled...
He's truly a master at his art, and he's always got his eyes wide open...
His mind and his concentration are just as amazing as are those quick and deadly hands, and that big, powerful, body of his....
I am just totally overwhelmed by that man...
He's phenomenal, to me he is the greatest!
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
TDWoj: I haven't seen the series you refer to so I can't say what they actually mean.
In NYC resides the head of USAF (US aikido federation). That is one of a couple of organisations in US affiliated with aikikai hombu dojo in Tokyo. ASU (aikido school of Ueshiba) e.g. is another. The head of USAF is Yamada sensei 8 dan. He is the head instructor together with Sugano sensei 8 dan of NY aikikai. The head of ASU is Saotome sensei 8 dan. And I can assure you that neither of these gentlemen would ever claim to teach the "only true Aikido". That was probably production errors as usual when popular television displays MA.
Regarding your footnote: Of what I've been told Steven Seagal is a very gentle and careing teacher. He just don't give you any false ideas of what he teaches you. You shouldn't make conclusion of someone unless you meet them face to face. It may come back and bite you ;)

/J
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Oh, and by the way, until I saw PBT, I didn't even know what Randori was before
I saw that, but he just turned me on so quick to the whole thing he was doing, and
I said, like wow...
I have got to know more...
I asked my self, wow, what are those cool moves he is doing?
I just NEEDED to know more, it was such an awesome display of talent,
my, my, my, he sure is something else...
Everyone has got to watch that tape...
You'll never doubt his prowess or his skill once you see it, he's just AMAZING!
 

Lotussan

I Belong To Steven
Aikilove, this is what you call being truly passionate about someone...
I can't help it, he's just too much...
And because I don't really want to...:D
And I doubt I could even if I tried...
I believe everyone here knows that by now...:D
I think I'd like him as my caring and gentle, teacher...
Maybe I mean teacher as in aikido, and maybe I don't...;)
TD---Now you can edit me...
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
Yes I know Lotussan... I believe you... but be aware, someone could take your comments the wrong way and believe you're a borderline stalker... I would hate that someone to be SS himself if you understand what I mean... ;)

/J
 

Littledragon

Above The Law
daito-ryu fighter said:
Hello,
When you see Aikido style of Steven Seagal Sensei it is sure that his techniques are very different compare to Aikikai style.
Techniques are very fast; less circular mouvement; strangulation and atemi (strike to pressure point) are present. So, his style is similar to the jujutsu part of the Daito-ryu aikijujutsu. For people which don't know this matial art, it is an effective brutally fighting method that introduced the great principle of Aiki.
As Ueshiba Sensei was a student for many years of Takeda Sensei (the great master who introduced the daito-ryu to the world) in the Hokkaido area of Japan , daito-ryu aikijujutsu is the root of Aikido. All jujutsu techniques basis of daito-ryu aikijujutsu are present in Aikido (as Irimi, shionage, kotegaeshi, Ikkajo, Nikkajo etc......), but techniques are practice with atemi to the vital point, pressure point application, extremely effective joint lock. See this pictures :

toki1.jpg
;
kako5.jpg


Attack of Uke are always effective (as the grapping).
When jujutsu techniques are ineffective against a man with a great strenght, Aiki principle is applied to break the oppenent's balance. Aiki in daito-ryu is completely different of Aiki in Aikido or Aikikai :here Aiki is harmonized people, love etc.......It is not the real Aiki!!! There are not a clear definition of real Aiki; in brief Aiki consist to harmonied my ki with the ki of the oppenent to break his balance or to control his entire body (in high level of Aiki) Fundamantals include :
Aiki - Spirit or energy unification.
Kokyu - Proper Breathing.
Kuzushi - Breaking the opponent's balance.
Ma-ai - Distance between opponents.
Metsuke - Meeting or focus of the eyes.
Zanshin - Staying attentive at the end of a technique.
Aiki has many complex dimension (spiritual, physical, psychical.......) ant it is complex to learn. See this master who appling one of many dimensions of Aiki (Aikiage) :

kako2.jpg

kondo1.jpg



In Conclusion: Aikido of Steven Seagal Sensei is very similar to the daito-ryu: powerful and effective wheareas Aikido of Aikikai is oriented to sport, relaxation, meeting between people........But Steven Seagal Aikido don't include the fabulous principle of Aiki that is only present in daito-ryu aikijujutu.

Bye.........................................


I read this thread and really loved your stuff. I was not aware that daito-ryu aikijujutsu is the root of Aikido.
 

Isoyama

New Member
Daito-ryu fighter,

I have to say that you have given some very good information and I agree with alot of what you say.

Seagal Sensei learned his style of aikido directly from Isoyama Sensei. While Seagal Sensei has trained with many different people, both in Japan and in America, it was Isoyama whom really taught him his style or martial form of aikido. I tend to agree with you on the jujutsu-like techniques in their aikido in that they emphasize very short, quick and instant movements rather than long and circular movements. Seagal and Isoyama also emphasize atemi waza like strikes and kicks as well as some locks like yubi dori and kotegaeshi.

But where I may disagree with you is the idea that Daito-ryu aiki is somehow more effective in certain situations. I can tell you that I have extensive experience training in the aiki forms of Daito-ryu(kodokai and roppokai) and while they are unique in their applications, I PERSONALLY don't think they will work on much larger and stronger opponents. Now, this is just my opinion but these forms of aiki were originally developed for use inside the castle in formal situations.

It was the jujutsu forms of Daito-ryu that were used on the battlefield in fierce battles. All of the top warriors were taught kenjutsu, jojutsu and jujutsu for use in battles. The jujutsu forms of Daito-ryu use more linear forms and have a heavy emphasis on atemi, locks and throws. Ueshiba Sensei de-emphasized the pins from Daito-ryu. Doesn't mean he didn't do them or not teach them but Ueshiba Sensei seemed to emphasize the locks and throws in aikido.

If you guys and gals have ever watched a demonstration of Daito-ryu techniques, you will see the jujutsu-waza being taught. Heavy emphasis on atemi, locks and pins. Ueshiba Sensei seemed to take out the pins and emphasized the throws more. I think this may have had to do with randori and dealing with multiple attackers. But who knows for sure. You just seem to see a greater emphasis in pins in Daito-ryu than you do in aikido.

My point to all of this is that I don't personally feel that the higher aiki techniques used in Daito-ryu are as practical against real attacks and larger attackers as compared to the jujutsu forms taught. As I said before, Daito-ryu aiki was developed for use inside the castle in formal situations while the jujustu techniques came directly from battlefield applications and from the kenjutsu techniques the Samurai of the Azul Clan had to learn.

Just my opinion.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
Isoyama and Daito Ryu fighter:I for one appreciate your inputs. Just remember that most on this board doesn't know this from that and may take any input as truth unless you make sure that it's an opinion from your side and not a clear fact.
E.g. Daito ryu you again state as fact that there is only one true aiki. What are your sources for this? Ask any classical kenjutsu school e.g. Yagyu Shinkage ryu, what aiki is and they will say something like "...well aiki is bla bla bla..." and their definition will most certainly be different from the definition made by you, but it is never the less just as valid one. Yagyu Shinkage has been documented been around since 1500-th. This cannot unfortunatelly not be said about Daito ryu (document have been destroyd or never existed are the two theories around why).
I have read that when Sokaku Takeda once came to visit Ueshiba Morehei as he was instructing he bacame outraged and said something like
- This isn't Daito ryu is it?
- No I have changed it and invented new techniques with time, Ueshiba answered.
- Well then you can't call it Daito ryu jujutsu can you? Takeda said. (Ueshiba was actually teaching Daito ryu under Takeda Sokaku back then)
Then Ueshiba had enough and became angry which made Takeda say:
- Well let's call it Daito ryu aikijujutsu then...
So aiki was actually introduced to by Takeda himself to describe what Ueshiba was doing when he transformed his budo into aikido!

Isoyama: I don't know if todays Daito ryu training prepare you less or more for multiple attackers then aikido but remember Takeda Sokaku or any of his close deshi didn't seem to have any problem with multiple attackers.
And neither Steven or Isoyama are doing something that are different from how alot of aikikai shihan, like Arikawa, Yamada, Saotome, Kobayashi and Saito sensei to name a few. They are all doing aikido, in their own way of curse, but still with atemi, linear as well as circular techniques and with the same locks, pins and throws. It's still aikido.

/J
 

Littledragon

Above The Law
Isoyama said:
Daito-ryu fighter,

I have to say that you have given some very good information and I agree with alot of what you say.

Seagal Sensei learned his style of aikido directly from Isoyama Sensei. While Seagal Sensei has trained with many different people, both in Japan and in America, it was Isoyama whom really taught him his style or martial form of aikido. I tend to agree with you on the jujutsu-like techniques in their aikido in that they emphasize very short, quick and instant movements rather than long and circular movements. Seagal and Isoyama also emphasize atemi waza like strikes and kicks as well as some locks like yubi dori and kotegaeshi.

But where I may disagree with you is the idea that Daito-ryu aiki is somehow more effective in certain situations. I can tell you that I have extensive experience training in the aiki forms of Daito-ryu(kodokai and roppokai) and while they are unique in their applications, I PERSONALLY don't think they will work on much larger and stronger opponents. Now, this is just my opinion but these forms of aiki were originally developed for use inside the castle in formal situations.

It was the jujutsu forms of Daito-ryu that were used on the battlefield in fierce battles. All of the top warriors were taught kenjutsu, jojutsu and jujutsu for use in battles. The jujutsu forms of Daito-ryu use more linear forms and have a heavy emphasis on atemi, locks and throws. Ueshiba Sensei de-emphasized the pins from Daito-ryu. Doesn't mean he didn't do them or not teach them but Ueshiba Sensei seemed to emphasize the locks and throws in aikido.

If you guys and gals have ever watched a demonstration of Daito-ryu techniques, you will see the jujutsu-waza being taught. Heavy emphasis on atemi, locks and pins. Ueshiba Sensei seemed to take out the pins and emphasized the throws more. I think this may have had to do with randori and dealing with multiple attackers. But who knows for sure. You just seem to see a greater emphasis in pins in Daito-ryu than you do in aikido.

My point to all of this is that I don't personally feel that the higher aiki techniques used in Daito-ryu are as practical against real attacks and larger attackers as compared to the jujutsu forms taught. As I said before, Daito-ryu aiki was developed for use inside the castle in formal situations while the jujustu techniques came directly from battlefield applications and from the kenjutsu techniques the Samurai of the Azul Clan had to learn.

Just my opinion.


WELCOME TO THE SITE!!
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
Little Dragon please take your time to see if someone are new to the board or not. Isoyama has been around for a half a year longer than you have!
/J
 
Dear Isoyama

I respect your opinion but,

I learned exactly the reverse compare what you said. When an opponent has a great physical strenght;or when he is robust to joint lock; or when he is resistant to strike (or pressure) on pressure point, it is difficult to apply jujutsu based techniques. It is why Aiki is used. Aiki is the control of the KI of Uke (associated to Tori KI) without using any pressure point or joint lock. An opponent can' resist when his Ki is controlled. An Example :

Gozo Shioda Sensei (great master ok AIKI) used Aiki principle to beat Mike Tyson. It is clear that Tyson has a physical strenght greater that Shioda Sensei strenght so his only based jujutsu techniques could be blocked.
shioda4.jpg


He also used Aiki with jujutsu techniques (Yonkajo) to beat Bodyguards of the president Kennedy

With who, you studied daito-ryu Aikijujutsu???? in Japan????

bye......................
 
To Aikilove

No, no, no,no Aiki was not introduced like what you said. Aiki is a old principle introduced not by Takeda Sensei himself but by Yoshimitsu Minamoto (1056-1127)

His1.jpg


All what i said, i learned it of great Master of daito-ryu in Japan where i studied.

bye.................
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
Ok Daito ryu... again what are your sources of this? What's the name of this great master?
It's since long well known that Takeda Sokaku lectured about the origin of his techniques and principles, dating it as far back as to Minamoto as you say, but there are unfortunatelly no proof of this what so ever.
Many well respected historians and practitioners of japanese MA in general and aiki and aikijujutsu/aikido in particular are still at loss as to the true history of Daito ryu as we know it today.
What is true however is that Takeda Sokaku is the only one that oraly transmitted the story now known by all Daito ryu instructors. And still it was he himself who reflected over that the way Ueshiba Morihei was doing budo, after it became as we know it today, was characterized by aiki, whatever the history of aiki as Takeda Sokaku knew it was. Are you going to dispute Takedas own words?

Trust me what ever the different definition of aiki is, it is not and I repeat not exlusive to Daito ryu or even martial arts. If you a native speaker the word or prefix "aiki" are used in a variety of contexts. Actually there is one valid translation that goes "love"! But be sure I don't dispute that what the aiki of Daito ryu exists and are something different that the standard definition of aikido aiki. I have felt it myself, from the grandson of Takuma Hisa. You know one of the Menkyo Kaiden recievers.

/J
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
And Daito ryu: First of Gozo Shioda was an aikidoka not Daito ryu practitioner. So whatever aiki he used it is the same as all of his students try to use and the same as I try to use when we train aikido!
Secondly, Shioda certainly didn't beat Mike Tyson or the JFK bodyguard (not that he couldn't that's for sure) he was either teaching them or showing techniques using them. They did not with mal-intent attack him so that he had to defend himself now did they? There is a big different. In either case it was aikido he used and not Daito ryu. You are biting yourself in your tail if you first claim that there is no other aiki than Daito ryu aiki, and then displaying proof of aiki in use by showing someone doing aikido!
/J
 

Isoyama

New Member
daito-ryu fighter said:
Dear Isoyama

I respect your opinion but,

I learned exactly the reverse compare what you said. When an opponent has a great physical strenght;or when he is robust to joint lock; or when he is resistant to strike (or pressure) on pressure point, it is difficult to apply jujutsu based techniques. It is why Aiki is used. Aiki is the control of the KI of Uke (associated to Tori KI) without using any pressure point or joint lock. An opponent can' resist when his Ki is controlled. An Example :

Gozo Shioda Sensei (great master ok AIKI) used Aiki principle to beat Mike Tyson. It is clear that Tyson has a physical strenght greater that Shioda Sensei strenght so his only based jujutsu techniques could be blocked.
shioda4.jpg


He also used Aiki with jujutsu techniques (Yonkajo) to beat Bodyguards of the president Kennedy

With who, you studied daito-ryu Aikijujutsu???? in Japan????

bye......................

Daito-ryu fighter,

That is a great pic and it was nice for Shioda Sensei to show Tyson what aiki is. But I am almost certain that Shioda spent VERY LITTLE time with Kodo Horikawa Sensei. In fact, I am sure of it. Shioda Sensei's aikido comes directly from Ueshiba Sensei during the pre-war years at the Kobukan Dojo also known as the hell dojo. I have seen video of Shioda's aikido and I have seen many of his disciples from the Yoshinkan in action and their aikido is very similar to what Seagal Sensei does. Very explosive, direct quick movements. Shioda would not have used the soft aiki that Daito-ryu used. He didn't train long enough with Horikawa Sensei.

I stand by my statement that the stuff that Horikawa Sensei and now the Roppokai are teaching is not practical against real attacks and today's style of martial arts. That form of aiki came in to existence from a formal application inside of a castle. It was NEVER used on the battlefield in war. ONly the jujutsu form of Daito-ryu were used because they were what worked. The kicking, striking, throwing your opponent down to the ground and killing him was what was used.
 
Dear Isoyama,

Why do you say that aiki techniques can't be used against real attacks or today's style of martial arts??

Did you learn Aiki techniques???
 

Isoyama

New Member
daito-ryu fighter said:
Dear Isoyama,

Why do you say that aiki techniques can't be used against real attacks or today's style of martial arts??

Did you learn Aiki techniques???

Yes, I have learned aiki techniques. They are too soft and don't use atemi as aiki.

If you look at the jujutsu forms of Daito-ryu, there is still aiki involved in them but it comes from atemi and the instant breaking of the opponents balance(kuzushi). That comes from atemi and irimi which the jujutsu forms use much more of. Like I said before, Daito-ryu aiki WAS NOT used on the battlefield. Daito-ryu jujutsu was.
 
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