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Seagal's Aikido style???

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#21
And that is the point, why would you try to do a technique where you had to jump or bounce? Not saying it doesn't work per se, just not a smart choice in my opinion!!!
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#21
Jumping or bouncing... no. No. Not a good idea, at all. Although I confess I do have to do a little bunny-hop just to get behind uke far enough to get hold of his neck or collar - but that is from a static position.

We were working on dynamic moves in Bill Collins Sensei's class. The only way to bring down someone a lot taller with irimi nage is if you do something else first to bring him down to your level - for example, ikkyo. If uke won't go down after ikkyo, just as he's coming up, you have a small window of opportunity to get him in irimi nage and so down.

But pit someone my size against someone 6'7"? Not even ikkyo would work in that instance, because I simply couldn't get my arm up high enough to push his elbow and wrist to get him off balance. My best choice for me to take down someone bigger than me is kotegaeshi or sankyo.

And the "clothes-lining" technique of irimi nage to me requires a lot of strength, which I don't have. I go for the chin every time. Takes less effort and they go down just as well.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#22
Correct TD.

Tenshinaikidoka, I respect your opinion, but I also have to repectfully disagree. Just take a look from where the technique came from. Let's say for arguments sake it came from O-sensei (even if it came from Takeda, he was smaller still!) who was pretty much smaller then everybody around him. Iriminage was some kind of favourite of his already in the 30's (back in the days where circles weren't as pronounced to say it nicely!). It's all in breaking ukes posture and bringing him down to your level, as you control ukes posture with your contact with ukes back and collar. Next step is to control ukes chin (not throat mind you) either with a push/strike or with your arm.
I would love to practice with you Tenshinaikidoka sometime!

/J
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#23
Just as a footnote - we have a Japanese girl in my class, and she's let it be known that apparently a lot of aikido terms have a sexual connotation outside of the dojo.... ;)
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#24
Sure, just take the principle one : Ai, can mean joining, love, together, blending etc; Musubi - can mean tying together, merging
Not hard to imagine alot of the terms being used in sexual contects too.

/J

Aikido (the art of Love!)
 
#25
tenshinaikidoka said:
And that is the point, why would you try to do a technique where you had to jump or bounce? Not saying it doesn't work per se, just not a smart choice in my opinion!!!
It worked - that's all that matters. Aikido is all about adapting to the situation, and what I did just happened - I didn't plan it, it wasn't a choice - it just 'came out'... And THAT should be the point of your training.
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#26
The thing is, though, aikido is all about being centred, and hopping up like a kangaroo diminishes the centredness - in my opinion, of course. Just because the hopping worked, doesn't make it right - or make it a usable aikido technique. (Just trying to picture O Sensei hopping up to bring down a bigger opponent. Nope. Can't see him doing that.)

Just as an aside: Yamada scolded my head instructor at the recent seminar for not teaching her students to bend their knees more. We're too straight-legged and "floaty", apparently. My hams are hurting big time, now, from more bent leg practice. Thanks, Yamada Sensei....
 
#27
TDWoj said:
The thing is, though, aikido is all about being centred, and hopping up like a kangaroo diminishes the centredness - in my opinion, of course. Just because the hopping worked, doesn't make it right - or make it a usable aikido technique. (Just trying to picture O Sensei hopping up to bring down a bigger opponent. Nope. Can't see him doing that.)

Just as an aside: Yamada scolded my head instructor at the recent seminar for not teaching her students to bend their knees more. We're too straight-legged and "floaty", apparently. My hams are hurting big time, now, from more bent leg practice. Thanks, Yamada Sensei....
Who says you have to be ON the ground to be centered ? Don't you think parachutists can be 'grounded' ?

I didn't say I 'hopped' around like a kangaroo; for this particular situation, it happened and it worked, and yes - it was usable in this situation. Like I said timing is everything. Whether it is 'right' or 'wrong' doesn't matter. And who decides whether something is right or wrong, anyway ? If you are ever in a situation on the street, and something comes out of you and surprises the attacker and works, are you going to say, well, I shouldn't have done it cuz' was 'wrong' ? You have to open your mind to your technique evolving.... If someone grabs you from behind, enclosing your arms were you almost can't move, are you not going to pinch the attackers thights right next to you to get out because it is 'wrong' in that it's 'not aikido' ? Of course it is, and of course you are going to pinch. Are you not going to use an umbrella when it rains, 'cuz it's not aikido ? Of course it is, and you will use an umbrella.

And speaking of jumping - you know who used to do that as part of his teaching and technique ? Koichi Tohei, and where do you think he got it from ? (I have seen old scenes of O'Sensei kinda' hopping).

(Now, that doesn't mean I do this in my practice, but you have to let whatever happen happen when confronted with an attack - your body must be trained to react as an echo).
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#28
If I ever get a chance to go to a seminar with Mary Heiny, I'll ask her about O Sensei and "hopping". She was a student of his, so I guess she would know. She'd be more approachable than Yamada Sensei. Who, by the way, does not advocate jumping at all. And Yamada Sensei was O Sensei's student, as well....

In fact, none of the instructors, including visiting ones, advocate any kind of leaping about. There are some movements done very fast, like ten kan or irimi, that might lend one to think there was hopping involved, but there isn't.

Good that it worked for you. I can't see it, myself. And what do parachutists have to do with aikido, anyway? When you are in the air, mid-jump, you are not centred. You cannot turn your centre to send your uke in the direction you want to go in. All you are doing is using your weight to pull uke down. And aikido is not about pulling. It's about pushing.
 
#29
The Aikido is very personal, maybe the most intimate martial art that I there are many ways to do the same Aikido, that´s why there are so many associations an all that stuff.

I he wants to jump, ok, jump, or do in the air, in the shower, kitchen....I give a damn....I don´t care

While we practise everything is alright, and he is happy jumping....jack flash
 
#30
TDWoj said:
If I ever get a chance to go to a seminar with Mary Heiny, I'll ask her about O Sensei and "hopping". She was a student of his, so I guess she would know. She'd be more approachable than Yamada Sensei. Who, by the way, does not advocate jumping at all. And Yamada Sensei was O Sensei's student, as well....

In fact, none of the instructors, including visiting ones, advocate any kind of leaping about. There are some movements done very fast, like ten kan or irimi, that might lend one to think there was hopping involved, but there isn't.

Good that it worked for you. I can't see it, myself. And what do parachutists have to do with aikido, anyway? When you are in the air, mid-jump, you are not centred. You cannot turn your centre to send your uke in the direction you want to go in. All you are doing is using your weight to pull uke down. And aikido is not about pulling. It's about pushing.

I don't know anyone now who does hopping... but Tohei did it early on and for yrs.

What do parachutists have to do with aikido ? Everything, if you make aikido your daily life. You can be centered doing ANYTHING and ANYWHERE, that is my point. And it's not about pushing either - it's about BLENDING.
 
#31
TDWoj said:
If I ever get a chance to go to a seminar with Mary Heiny, I'll ask her about O Sensei and "hopping". She was a student of his, so I guess she would know. She'd be more approachable than Yamada Sensei. Who, by the way, does not advocate jumping at all. And Yamada Sensei was O Sensei's student, as well....

In fact, none of the instructors, including visiting ones, advocate any kind of leaping about. There are some movements done very fast, like ten kan or irimi, that might lend one to think there was hopping involved, but there isn't.

Good that it worked for you. I can't see it, myself. And what do parachutists have to do with aikido, anyway? When you are in the air, mid-jump, you are not centred. You cannot turn your centre to send your uke in the direction you want to go in. All you are doing is using your weight to pull uke down. And aikido is not about pulling. It's about pushing.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-726.html
 

tenshinaikidoka

Martial Art Student
#32
I will agree that everyone's Aikido is there own and they can do with it what they want. I think personally, if I had a larger aggressor, I personally would not do an iriminage. And Aikilove, you are correct, I would like to train with you as well, it would be fun and I love exchanging ideas/techniques with other Aikidoka.
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#32
jhogan said:
I don't know anyone now who does hopping... but Tohei did it early on and for yrs.

What do parachutists have to do with aikido ? Everything, if you make aikido your daily life. You can be centered doing ANYTHING and ANYWHERE, that is my point. And it's not about pushing either - it's about BLENDING.
I'll let Bill Collins Sensei know. In fact, I'd better tell all of my instructors that they've been teaching us incorrectly, that aikido is only about blending, that pushing is not correct. I'm sure they'd want to have their misapprehension of aikido corrected as soon as possible, before they do any more damage to their students.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#33
In aikido one pushes...
In aikido one pulls...
In aikido one blends...
In aikido one harmonize...
In aikido one enters...
In aikido one opens...
In aikido one cuts...
In aikido one deflects...
In aikido one recieves...
In aikido one initiates...
In aikido one remains centered...
In aikido one remains balanced...
In aikido one control the breathing of ones self...
In aikido one control the self...
In aikido one should be a diamond, willow or water...

In aikido one train...
In aikido one smiles...

Everyone of the above are correct. Do one. Do all.

In aikido one does not fight...

/J
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#34
I agree with all of the above, except for pulling. The number of times I've had an instructor bellow in my ear, "Push! don't pull!".... as I've discovered, pushing works. Pulling doesn't. But that may be because I have no upper body strength. Pulling might work if you've got the physical strength to do it. I don't.
 

Aikilove

Old member aikidoka
#35
TD. In most techniqes like ikkyo ura waza, it is comon that the students pull the arm after himself, instead of pushing it in front of his center. In those cases it is not ok to pull, I agree. But there are a time and place for a pulling motion too. I usually don't use the term pull or push in aikido anyway because there is usually much more to it than that.

When you have trained for an extended period of time and the techniques are all there, one will see infinite possibilities and variations for each given situation. One such could be to simply relax and lie down when someone tries to hold your arm. The effect will be a pulling feeling on your part. This is ok.

In most basic techniques one focus more on extending (pushing), yes!

/J
 
#36
TDWoj said:
I'll let Bill Collins Sensei know. In fact, I'd better tell all of my instructors that they've been teaching us incorrectly, that aikido is only about blending, that pushing is not correct. I'm sure they'd want to have their misapprehension of aikido corrected as soon as possible, before they do any more damage to their students.
You go girl !
 
#37
tenshinaikidoka said:
I will agree that everyone's Aikido is there own and they can do with it what they want. I think personally, if I had a larger aggressor, I personally would not do an iriminage. And Aikilove, you are correct, I would like to train with you as well, it would be fun and I love exchanging ideas/techniques with other Aikidoka.
I wouldn't do the classic Seagal-type iriminage either, but what I did was sokumen iriminage - worked a little better.
 
#38
TDWoj said:
I agree with all of the above, except for pulling. The number of times I've had an instructor bellow in my ear, "Push! don't pull!".... as I've discovered, pushing works. Pulling doesn't. But that may be because I have no upper body strength. Pulling might work if you've got the physical strength to do it. I don't.
If you are pushing against an opponent you have lost, as all the opponent has to do is accept your force and suck you in so that you are disadvantaged.
 

TDWoj

Administrator
Staff member
#39
jhogan said:
If you are pushing against an opponent you have lost, as all the opponent has to do is accept your force and suck you in so that you are disadvantaged.
Um, no. Pushing, in aikido, is not the kind of "pushing" you're describing. Nage is always pushing out from his centre - never pulling. If you pull uke into you, you are looking at a reversal. Push him away (gosh, I can hear Bill Collins Sensei's voice in my head as I type that) from your centre, and you've got him.

As I said, pulling is probably do-able for guys a helluva lot stronger and bigger than I am. I'll stick to pushing away from my centre. Uke goes down with a lot less effort, and I don't have to spend an hour under a hot shower to ease the muscle strain.